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Vickers suppresssion speed?

18 Apr 2020, 14:00 PM
#1
avatar of TomDRV

Posts: 57

This is only anecdotal, I may be wrong.

It seems like it's too slow to be effective?
A few games the last few days, I *think* (cause I was managing other units not just looking - haven't tested) that the suppression speed is so slow, a Volk squad can charge it head on and crawl up close enough while under suppression to throw a flame nade and win the engagement.

Is this true? Should I not rely on them to hold points when fighting against OKW?
18 Apr 2020, 14:36 PM
#2
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 817

It has weaker suppression compared to other MGs, this is fine early game vs volks but late game you will find its lasered down from 35 range by obers, jagers etc

So the key is spotting for it so you can get that max range suppression before enemy squads can kill the gunner. Once you get vet try to combine it with trenches or buildings and it can somewhat self spot if placed right
18 Apr 2020, 16:00 PM
#3
avatar of TomDRV

Posts: 57

It has weaker suppression compared to other MGs, this is fine early game vs volks but late game you will find its lasered down from 35 range by obers, jagers etc

So the key is spotting for it so you can get that max range suppression before enemy squads can kill the gunner. Once you get vet try to combine it with trenches or buildings and it can somewhat self spot if placed right


Thanks!
18 Apr 2020, 16:02 PM
#4
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2333

OP is correct about vickers being bad for suppression.
It has higher damage as tradeoff. But its a weird gimmick.

Some people would rather prefer vickers to be better to do its intended role as HMG and its crowd control. Since UKF is less gimmicky each patch, maybe someday soon it could receive better suppression to stop rushing OKW volks.

As for Obers i might say that its harder to balance, because they excel at long range with its LMG.
18 Apr 2020, 16:17 PM
#5
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7208 | Subs: 1

OP is correct about vickers being bad for suppression.
It has higher damage as tradeoff. But its a weird gimmick.

Some people would rather prefer vickers to be better to do its intended role as HMG and its crowd control. Since UKF is less gimmicky each patch, maybe someday soon it could receive better suppression to stop rushing OKW volks.

As for Obers i might say that its harder to balance, because they excel at long range with its LMG.


I would like to mention that the higher damage is only noticeable because it takes longer to suppress. When a unit is instantly suppress, they take less damage.


OP, once there is plenty of cover going around in the late game, if your vickers is not vet don't expect to do much against more than 1 squad.
18 Apr 2020, 17:00 PM
#6
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 297

I would like to mention that the higher damage is only noticeable because it takes longer to suppress. When a unit is instantly suppress, they take less damage.

Following this logic, Maxim would deal even more damage. I believe there is more to that than just suppression, I could be wrong though

It's just my observation, but Vickers feels like it deals more damage than what you'd expect from an MG. It's unique in this regard and I think the trade of suppression for damage is just fine for both sides.
18 Apr 2020, 17:11 PM
#7
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2333



I would like to mention that the higher damage is only noticeable because it takes longer to suppress. When a unit is instantly suppress, they take less damage.


OP, once there is plenty of cover going around in the late game, if your vickers is not vet don't expect to do much against more than 1 squad.


Completely agreed, on both points.
As a finishing detail, it takes both Suppression time + raw DPS to determine how effectively an HMG deals damage to other squads. Vickers is finely tuned to perform the best as damage dealer.
18 Apr 2020, 17:27 PM
#8
avatar of Latch

Posts: 671

Ill just leave this here (Again):

18 Apr 2020, 17:34 PM
#9
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1360 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Apr 2020, 17:27 PMLatch
Ill just leave this here (Again):



He could've had 10% less suppression bulletin, it's pretty common :sibDZ:
18 Apr 2020, 17:57 PM
#10
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15462 | Subs: 7


Following this logic, Maxim would deal even more damage. I believe there is more to that than just suppression, I could be wrong though

It's just my observation, but Vickers feels like it deals more damage than what you'd expect from an MG. It's unique in this regard and I think the trade of suppression for damage is just fine for both sides.

They actually have almost identical DPS at relevant ranges, however maxim deals less dmg per shot and shoots less bullets per burst.

Maxim deals sustained dmg, while vickers deals bursts, so despite equal DPS, vickers is much more reliable at sniping models before suppression kicks in.
18 Apr 2020, 18:49 PM
#11
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4094 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Apr 2020, 17:57 PMKatitof

They actually have almost identical DPS at relevant ranges, however maxim deals less dmg per shot and shoots less bullets per burst.

Maxim deals sustained dmg, while vickers deals bursts, so despite equal DPS, vickers is much more reliable at sniping models before suppression kicks in.

To add to this, this is part why the Vicky is poor at suppression. It'll burst down a model and need to reaquire a target where it will not be shooting and thus not suppressing.
19 Apr 2020, 01:43 AM
#12
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2477 | Subs: 1


To add to this, this is part why the Vicky is poor at suppression. It'll burst down a model and need to reaquire a target where it will not be shooting and thus not suppressing.


It's also why people complaining about the damage of the mg34 confuse me very much. Good damage really isn't necessarily a good thing for an HMG
19 Apr 2020, 01:50 AM
#13
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2333



It's also why people complaining about the damage of the mg34 confuse me very much. Good damage really isn't necessarily a good thing for an HMG

Sniping a model in a 4 man squad with the first burst is now a bad thing?
19 Apr 2020, 01:53 AM
#14
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2477 | Subs: 1


Sniping a model in a 4 man squad with the first burst is now a bad thing?


Yes. Gives that 4 man squad more time to get closer and throw/shoot a grenade before range reduction kicks in

It also only does that damage to begin with because it's suppression is slower. But youre already aware of this
19 Apr 2020, 01:57 AM
#15
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2949

It's pretty sad.

OP is correct about vickers being bad for suppression.
It has higher damage as tradeoff. But its a weird gimmick.

Some people would rather prefer vickers to be better to do its intended role as HMG and its crowd control. Since UKF is less gimmicky each patch, maybe someday soon it could receive better suppression to stop rushing OKW volks.

As for Obers i might say that its harder to balance, because they excel at long range with its LMG.

This is pretty much spot on.

As for Obers I guess what I would add is that you shouldn't be letting them close in to small arms range with your MG anyway, but with vickers its a different story because no amount of micro will increase its poor suppression.
19 Apr 2020, 04:04 AM
#16
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2333



Yes. Gives that 4 man squad more time to get closer and throw/shoot a grenade before range reduction kicks in

Did you know that even the riflenade is affected by directional cover? Even mortars do. If the Vickers is on heavy cover even if the gren squad scores a riflenade dead center, it only damages around 10% to the whole squad (not that the riflenade deals 10% dmg only). Bundlenades too, unless you flanked the HMG.
19 Apr 2020, 04:44 AM
#17
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4094 | Subs: 1


Did you know that even the riflenade is affected by directional cover? Even mortars do. If the Vickers is on heavy cover even if the gren squad scores a riflenade dead center, it only damages around 10% to the whole squad (not that the riflenade deals 10% dmg only). Bundlenades too, unless you flanked the HMG.

Which is relevant how? Not having the suppression to stop them from frontally nading it is absolutely a problem for an Mg regardless of the incoming damage.
19 Apr 2020, 05:20 AM
#18
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2477 | Subs: 1


Which is relevant how? Not having the suppression to stop them from frontally nading it is absolutely a problem for an Mg regardless of the incoming damage.


Yup pretty much

Especially considering the other axis mainline has flame nades, which makes cover itrelevant
19 Apr 2020, 07:56 AM
#19
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2560 | Subs: 1


Did you know that even the riflenade is affected by directional cover? Even mortars do. If the Vickers is on heavy cover even if the gren squad scores a riflenade dead center, it only damages around 10% to the whole squad (not that the riflenade deals 10% dmg only). Bundlenades too, unless you flanked the HMG.


It's impossible for a rifle nade hit to do 10% damage on a direct hit. Even if you only hit 1 model in green cover directly and not hit any others, it will still do 12.5% damage to the squad (40 damage). However, units clump up in cover, and hitting a 4-man squad in green cover with a rifle nade will usually do something like 33-50% damage to the squad.
19 Apr 2020, 08:04 AM
#20
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2333


Which is relevant how? Not having the suppression to stop them from frontally nading it is absolutely a problem for an Mg regardless of the incoming damage.

It is at least a detail to consider, a well placed HMG can stand better against the marginal example of a riflenade. Trading a single model (30MP) and a skillshot that costs 30Mu for only a slight amount of damage is a bad trade. I think that its possible to kill the gunner if it hits just right, but im not sure about it.

It is relevant since this feature punishes badly placed hmgs compared to well defended positions. Trences and buildings are even better. This simple mechanic teaches and rewards players to use the hmg in a specific way. If you really want to stop grens from using riflenade, you should nerf their fire animation, nerfing overall the gren squad.

I do think that volks lavanade is BS when they can throw it under vickers fire, since it will force the vickers to move and damage the crew a lot more. The volks suppression bulletin is a big issue aswell.



It's impossible for a rifle nade hit to do 10% damage on a direct hit.

I said it does not deal 10%, pls read again. Heavy cover mitigates half the incoming damage. The squad might get hurt by the far AoE, only 1-2 models will receive near AoE dmg. Overall it hurts the creo by 10-20% of the squad health
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