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russian armor

ISU152 vs Elefant - harder to kill an ISU152

17 Apr 2020, 00:58 AM
#41
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1905


The JT and Elefant kill medium tanks in about 18s (but 8,8s with a single faust thrown in) from the first shot and kill a 1040hp heavy in 26,4s from the first shot. They have pretty much double the AT DPM compared to the ISU-152, although this advantage does get neutered against 640hp vehicles because of the overkill damage that's required.



The SU-85 needs about 45s to kill a Tiger I. The Elefant needs 26,4s to kill an IS-2.
At vet 3 the SU-85 needs about 27,4s while the Elefant needs 15s.

The Elefant has far superior DPM, although it mostly loses the advantage against 640hp vehicles because it needs to deal significant overkill damage and needs a third shot to deal the last 40 damage. But as I've said, in case both are supported by infantry who can deal even a single snare worth of damage, the Elefant can kill even medium vehicles almost twice as fast.


Maybe 4v4's are just different, but here is a clip from a 4v4 with a JT and multiple Firefly's. I missed the video of the first shot from the JT, but the life expectancy of a Firefly is about 7 seconds unless they retreat. You'll see one go from Veteran to salvage in that amount of time, with some overkill. That's less time than the ISU takes to switch from HE TO AP. There is only one of the two that I would call "extremely capable" against armor.

The OKW player on my right is probably making threads about how the KT is trash (because he should've been able to A-move it into the three Firefly's and Churchill) and the UKF player is probably creating balance threads on lowering the pop cap of Sextons (so he can have four of them watching his side of the map crumble).

The game isn't in bad shape and these threads aren't necessary or helpful. The only suggestion that seemed good was the one to lower rear armor to 110 max, but that should be done globally to reward flanking.

17 Apr 2020, 01:15 AM
#42
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1739

Yes reduce to 110 rear armor now! Before cohrona cup.

It is same shenanigans as IS2 armor problem.
17 Apr 2020, 01:52 AM
#43
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 593



It has 260/230/200 pen, which is only enough to reliably penetrate medium tanks (even if it has deflection damage). And it deals 240 damage rather than 300. While this certainly isn't bad, it is not at all comparable to the Elefant (and Jagdtiger) with enough far range pen for a guaranteed penetration on any tank in the game and a significantly lower TTK against most vehicles. Not to mention a roughly 20% slower reload and worse gun traverse. It's good enough at AT, but calling it extremely capable (at AT) is a gross overstatement.

u hit the mark here. elephant and isu have totally different roles in the end its hard to compare. yes isu have HE but u have to constantly switch and wait long times. then switch back when u need to fight a tank and it hardly penetrates a panther. u can dive at a isu with your tanks u cant really dive at a ele unless u rdy to lose half ur armor
17 Apr 2020, 01:52 AM
#44
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 320

Yea. The ISU's power comes almost entirely from its HE round; that round is quite absurd.

The Ele can be obnoxious, especially on narrow "lane" maps, but it's still only a dedicated AT weapon. If you instead opt to focus on infantry and ATGs, it's not too hard to deal with, since it's a massive 720mp/245f/21pop unit that can do literally nothing to those units.

The ISU, however, doesn't have that downside. If you focus on tanks, like the STUG, Panther, etc. it can still (to some degree) deal with those, thanks to its strong front armor, and decent HP pool, mobility, and AP round. If you focus on infantry/ATGs, the ISU can deal with those exceptionally well, thanks to the HE round's massive AoE and range (it can out-range ATGs, as you said).

This is, of course, only considering the units themselves. As others have pointed out, the ISU docs are incredibly viable in a huge variety of maps, whereas the Ele only excels in the "Jaeger Armor Doc", which focuses almost entirely on AT and Recon, and offers nothing in terms of AI.

Additionally, when looking at docs to counter these vehicles, Sov is simply much better equipped. Ram + Offmap is a much better vehicle "deletion" system than anything OST has to offer. If the Stuka Dive Bomb had the ability to 1-shot the ISU, then things would be a fair bit different (although that would make SDB absurdly overpowered).

Well, ISU152 is even more expensive than Elefant and Elefant comes in a faction which has Ostwind, Brummbar and Panzerwerfer stock so I don't think any extra AI is needed. Meanwhile SOV stock lategame AI comes primarily from T34 and Katy.

Both doctrines are extremely good, but I would not underestimate the power of Recon Plane and Stuka Bombing being in the same doctrine as Elefant. One of the SOV ways to deal with Ele if you don't want to ram and IL2 bomb it, is to constantly displace it with ML20 barrage, as the Elefant is so big it gets hit often and you just can't stay there and repair under barrage. This counter is completely negated by the Recon+Stuka combo, unless your opponent is Brit/USF and they go Sexton/Priest, but those are the only 2 doctrines western allies have that counter the Elefant.

Additionaly someone mentioned Spotting Scopes being nerfed, they were nerfed indeed, which is good, however this only means that you can't self spot and move at the same time. Meanwhile you can still just park 222 next to Elefant and give it 90 vision once your 222 shoots enough planes to get to vet2.

IF not for ISU's HE shell, nobody would build this unit. I only use it for AT sometimes just to vet it faster to vet2 at which it gets extra reload speed.
17 Apr 2020, 06:20 AM
#45
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2020, 00:58 AMGrumpy

but the life expectancy of a Firefly is about 7 seconds unless they retreat.


Your clip is on double speed, and it's 2x FF vs a JT and raketten.
17 Apr 2020, 06:24 AM
#46
avatar of Acidfreak

Posts: 281


Well, ISU152 is even more expensive than Elefant and Elefant comes in a faction which has Ostwind, Brummbar and Panzerwerfer stock so I don't think any extra AI is needed. Meanwhile SOV stock lategame AI comes primarily from T34 and Katy.

Both doctrines are extremely good, but I would not underestimate the power of Recon Plane and Stuka Bombing being in the same doctrine as Elefant. One of the SOV ways to deal with Ele if you don't want to ram and IL2 bomb it, is to constantly displace it with ML20 barrage, as the Elefant is so big it gets hit often and you just can't stay there and repair under barrage. This counter is completely negated by the Recon+Stuka combo, unless your opponent is Brit/USF and they go Sexton/Priest, but those are the only 2 doctrines western allies have that counter the Elefant.

Additionaly someone mentioned Spotting Scopes being nerfed, they were nerfed indeed, which is good, however this only means that you can't self spot and move at the same time. Meanwhile you can still just park 222 next to Elefant and give it 90 vision once your 222 shoots enough planes to get to vet2.

IF not for ISU's HE shell, nobody would build this unit. I only use it for AT sometimes just to vet it faster to vet2 at which it gets extra reload speed.


spot on.
17 Apr 2020, 06:27 AM
#47
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1739



spot on.


So can we reduce its armor to 110? Yes? No!?
17 Apr 2020, 10:21 AM
#48
avatar of jackill2611

Posts: 246

It does a good enough job at keeping axis armor at bay while simultaneously negating infantry.

The word "simultaneously" in this context is not true
17 Apr 2020, 10:39 AM
#49
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2874 | Subs: 2

I used my simulation to let every of these units shoot at a Sherman, All tanks needed about 4 shots to kill it, which would give the ISU a TTK of 31,3 s and Elefant Jagdtiger about 26,7 s.

Against a heavy:
Elefant -> IS-2: 4,7 shots or 32,8 s
ISU -> Tiger: 8,5 shots or 77,8 s

All sims done at range 70 and only frontal hits allowed.

Now bear in mind I do not have the in-game hitboxes for scatter shots, so I used the real life tank sizes. Actual numbers might differ a bit. But it is also true that 77% of the shots are natural shots/hits which are simulated correctly. And even of all the scatter shots most should be simulated correctly. So even if these numbers are not 100% like in-game, they are not far from it.

Conclusion:
Using the ISU against heavy tanks is an absolute waste
17 Apr 2020, 10:47 AM
#50
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13287 | Subs: 1

I used my simulation to let every of these units shoot at a Sherman, All tanks needed about 4 shots to kill it, which would give the ISU a TTK of 31,3 s and Elefant Jagdtiger about 26,7 s.

Against a heavy:
Elefant -> IS-2: 4,7 shots or 32,8 s
ISU -> Tiger: 8,5 shots or 77,8 s

All sims done at range 70 and only frontal hits allowed.

Now bear in mind I do not have the in-game hitboxes for scatter shots, so I used the real life tank sizes. Actual numbers might differ a bit. But it is also true that 77% of the shots are natural shots/hits which are simulated correctly. And even of all the scatter shots most should be simulated correctly. So even if these numbers are not 100% like in-game, they are not far from it.

Conclusion:
Using the ISU against heavy tanks is an absolute waste

Think your number might be off, I think did not calculate deflection damage and skill shots for ISU-152.

Another factor is mark target which would increase the capability of the ISU-152 especially vs Tigers.

Another interesting point is that Elefant is only x117% better than ISU-152 vs mediums according to numbers.
17 Apr 2020, 11:17 AM
#51
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2874 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2020, 10:47 AMVipper

Think your number might be off, I think did not calculate deflection damage and skill shots for ISU-152.

Another factor is mark target which would increase the capability of the ISU-152 especially vs Tigers.

Another interesting point is that Elefant is only x117% better than ISU-152 vs mediums according to numbers.

That is actually true, I forgot the deflection damage.

Will redo it, potentially this evening if I find the time

How are deflection shots implemented? As straight values or percentage of the base damage? I know for the ISU it should be 120 smg per shot
17 Apr 2020, 11:21 AM
#52
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13287 | Subs: 1


That is actually true, I forgot the deflection damage.

Will redo it, potentially this evening if I find the time

How are deflection shots implemented? As straight values or percentage of the base damage? I know for the ISU it should be 120 smg per shot

percentage of core base damage

AP has 120 deflection damage
HE has 40 deflection damage
Skill shot has 80 although it has high penetration values and few units can bounce it.

If I remember correctly skill shot can also be used to reduce TTK if used after first shot since it has lower reload.

ISU-152 is probably good AT vs up to including the Panther and vs higher armored the skill shot and 120 deflection damage is not bad either.
17 Apr 2020, 13:08 PM
#53
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1739

why you guys talk TTK?
Im more worried about time to kill said unit.
ISU152 rear armor is too high, just reduce to 110 and it is fair!
17 Apr 2020, 13:16 PM
#54
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

I personally think ISU has more micro tax in order to be very good. The HE explosive shells are more damaging with ground attacks and many players do not utilize. Not to mention you have to switch shells between HE and AT.
17 Apr 2020, 13:17 PM
#55
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

I personally think ISU has more micro tax in order to be very good. The HE explosive shells are more damaging with ground attacks and many players do not utilize. Not to mention you have to switch shells between HE and AT.

Umm, no, they are not, its pure observation bias.
ISU has pretty significant scatter, so its pure RNG, it ain't brummbar where ground targeting helps anything, unless you're trying to hit blob on the move.
17 Apr 2020, 13:19 PM
#56
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1201

I personally think ISU has more micro tax in order to be very good. The HE explosive shells are more damaging with ground attacks and many players do not utilize. Not to mention you have to switch shells between HE and AT.
The ISU is incredibly easy to use. Never ever switch to AP shells, instead build two Zis guns and spam mines. Easy with the Soviet muni flow.
17 Apr 2020, 13:22 PM
#57
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2020, 13:19 PMButcher
Easy with the Soviet muni flow.

How?
Haven't you notived that over last 3 years all of soviet stock abilities got increased muni costs or got muni cost when previously was none in addition to certain units getting muni upgrades?

Soviets are at the very least as muni dependent as ost, floating muni as soviets is a myth that died long time ago.
17 Apr 2020, 14:09 PM
#58
avatar of Acidfreak

Posts: 281

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2020, 06:27 AMmrgame2


So can we reduce its armor to 110? Yes? No!?

sorry but did you know that concrete piercing round can not penetrate shit?
what are the values for that skillshot anyway?
17 Apr 2020, 14:21 PM
#59
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13287 | Subs: 1


sorry but did you know that concrete piercing round can not penetrate shit?
what are the values for that skillshot anyway?

Penetration near 400
Penetration mid 350
Penetration far 300....
17 Apr 2020, 15:07 PM
#60
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2020, 14:21 PMVipper

Penetration near 400
Penetration mid 350
Penetration far 300....

Isn't it like 90mu tho? That's not unreasonable for a skill shot of that price tag tbh
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