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Ram + Offmap combo needs to be nerfed

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6 Apr 2020, 12:12 PM
#61
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17619 | Subs: 9

tbh, i still don't know why there are endless players going full heavy when they spot the good old T34 spam/ram tactic. I just go 2xJP4 and mines :D

Because playing RTS games is like driving a train, once you go trans siberian, you just can't deviate from the rails in the slightest.

Come on, its a common knowledge that you can't change your BO and how you play in CoH, regardless what happens on field, which faction opponent is, which units and doctrine it uses, you just need to keep yourself on the rails no matter what man, that's the only way to competitive #1 rank.
6 Apr 2020, 12:15 PM
#62
avatar of SweetrollNearTheDoor

Posts: 170 | Subs: 1


+1, but there also isn't any justification why T34 should be immobilized and lose its gun when other tank doesn't lose its own, because using ram is a 100% chance of losing tank under any circumstances other then "it rammed the only AT unit of opposing faction".


My bet is that if Ram-in-a-good-spot-right-now ever gets touched it either gets nerfed to oblivion or it gets a very weird buff as a compensation to become a meme like the B4 or Sturmtiger. (How about a timed vet 1 ability that passively makes it shoot nades :romeoMug: )

As for the 100% chance to lose a t34 at least you know for certain whats gonna happen to your tank. Opponent on the other hand might get away just fine if the tank only gets stunned or it gets handed to allied AT on a silver platter with 3% immobilized crit. (Or one could go all in on RNG and give the T34 a 3% abandon chance on ram if the crew chickens out :sibHyena: )
6 Apr 2020, 12:22 PM
#63
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783

I agree the ram and rocket strafe combo is too powerful. I also agree with the assessment that the main reason for this comes from ram, but I disagree that the strafe should keep its damage as it currently is.

I'm not sure what to do with ram exactly though I'm hesitant at complete removal.

I think the rocket strafe should have its damage nerfed but cost quite a bit less and have a shorter cooldown to make it less devastating but more spammable.


This thread has been a rather interesting read.
6 Apr 2020, 12:34 PM
#64
avatar of RollingStone

Posts: 173

Ram is fine! (c)

However offmaps should be looked at. Give them the same treatment as Ostheer's Frag Bombs - faster call-in time, but slow and vunerable on the approach - like that fuel plane from Lend-Lease doctrine,
6 Apr 2020, 14:31 PM
#65
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 379 | Subs: 1

tbh, i still don't know why there are endless players going full heavy when they spot the good old T34 spam/ram tactic. I just go 2xJP4 and mines :D


Ah yes, in 2v2 I'm definitely going Pz4s or Stugs against the ISU.

Thank for this incredibly valuable comment. Coh2 will never be the same again.
6 Apr 2020, 14:54 PM
#66
avatar of Princeps

Posts: 214


Well, unfortunately, it isn't.
For each 4 P4s you can get 5 T34s and P4s will still win due to superior armor and penetration.
Its more affordable, but its most certainly not spammable compared to any other stock med with exception of OKW P4.


oh yes theyre instantly blow up the T34 the all mighty P4 Tank


That counters mines how?

Hmm Well maybe u go for and try to mine against an ISU (little hint, u cant, cause its fuks Pios easy)
But if u would have ever played a game against a skilled player than u would have known

Which better soviet recons? Vetted T-70 if its somehow alife at that stage?
Which soviet ability is better/more effective then vetted 222 with scopes or UHU?

yes because its so difficult to vet up the best light tank in the game...
maybe mortar flares, recon planes in the same doctrine, maybe a sniper, or selfspot Su85, or cheap spammable infantry some of these.

UHU :thumbsup: worst unit wich no one plays
6 Apr 2020, 14:59 PM
#67
avatar of Blebfeesh

Posts: 128

Yeah, as many have already said, the problem isnt with ram, using a 90 fuel tank as a glorified snare is expensive as shit, and very often ends very badly. It's a problem of the IL2 rocketstrafe which definitely needs a nerd imo. But even then,the ol ram and rocket, unless every rocket lands, isnt enough to fully kill a panther or tiger let alone OKW heavy.
6 Apr 2020, 18:46 PM
#68
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



Unfortunately, it's not consistent. It's also extremely unlikely with very slow 'ultra-heavy' vehicles, such as the JT.


Both options are consistent (no RNG), it's not reliable.

I'll say it again, the only reason this is brought now is because IL2 rocket strafe is too cheap and too reliable.

The problem in how you bring "counter play" into discussion is by the delimitation you put up. Snare can't be dodge up. Single strafe can't be destroyed realistically before they delivered their payload. A single squad of infantry can't deal with a sniper kitting constantly back, etc.
The perspective and tools when talking of counter play between a MOBA and an RTS is different. Counterplay in an RTS doesn't start when the action takes place in the screen.


PD: ram COULD be reworked but it's not a necessity (outside of removing the minus 5% mega crit). The issue is just the new Commander strafe ability in combination with it.
6 Apr 2020, 18:49 PM
#69
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 642

But even then,the ol ram and rocket, unless every rocket lands, isnt enough to fully kill a panther or tiger let alone OKW heavy.



Absolutely it wouldn't kill a panther either.
6 Apr 2020, 19:43 PM
#70
avatar of Blebfeesh

Posts: 128

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 18:49 PMKoRneY



Absolutely it wouldn't kill a panther either.

I stand corrected lmao. I guess I haven't been seeing or using it to it's full completely broken potential.
6 Apr 2020, 20:15 PM
#71
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 958

Both options are consistent (no RNG), it's not reliable.

I'll say it again, the only reason this is brought now is because IL2 rocket strafe is too cheap and too reliable.


It's probably a mix of both; neither being consistent or reliable.

As pointed out by 'SweetrollNearTheDoor', what the ram actually does is somewhat RNG-based; ram still has a 5% chance of heavy engine damage and 3% chance of immobilization. Furthermore, once the ram is actually triggered, consistency is also pretty bad, since snaring the T34 doesn't actually snare it (this would be a good option for counter-play).

That said, specifically regarding "you can block or out run the ram", you are correct - they are consistent, just unreliable (and hard to actually do, in game).

The problem in how you bring "counter play" into discussion is by the delimitation you put up. Snare can't be dodge up. Single strafe can't be destroyed realistically before they delivered their payload. A single squad of infantry can't deal with a sniper kitting constantly back, etc.


This part I'll disagree with.

Firstly, snare can be countered. Once the animation starts (i.e. once 'clicked'), if the model doing the animation is killed, the snare is "countered" (it doesn't fire, wastes the ammo, and puts it on cooldown). While this does technically open up the comparison of "just destroy the T34 before the ram hits", destroying a single infantry model is much easier.

Secondly, single-strafe can also be countered. Once the ability is clicked, there's the red smoke, as well as the actual plane entering the map. Both of these give the receiving player the option to do something after the ability is used.

Snipers, I will admit, fall into a "grey" area between good and bad game design. On the one hand, "basic attacks" are usually ignored when discussing counter-play; no one complains that there's no way to dodge small arms, for example. On the other hand, the "basic attack" for snipers is very powerful, to the point where it's hard to compare it to other infantry. Then we must also consider sight ranges, HP, and supporting units; in a vacuum, where it's only a sniper and an infantry squad, the sniper can't consistently kit the infantry squad, since it must stay still to aim, and it needs to turn 180 degrees to fire at the approaching squad. Additionally, there's a very, very long history of threads complaining about "sniper wars" and the lack of counter-play available.

The perspective and tools when talking of counter play between a MOBA and an RTS is different. Counter-play in an RTS doesn't start when the action takes place in the screen.


This, too, I'll disagree with. If you take a close look at all of the 'balanced' units and abilities in CoH2, they all follow the "Ability -> Counter-play Opportunity -> Effect" pattern. Yes, part of countering a unit does occur before the use of its abilities, but the counter-play surrounding an ability is consistently there.

Mortar Barrage? Click -> Sound/Travel time -> Effect
Rockets/Arty? Click -> Sound/Travel time -> Effect
Off map? Smoke -> Delay/Plane Travel time -> Effect
Non-smoke off map? Click -> Noticeable sound/Very long delay -> Effect
Sturmtiger/AVRE? Click -> Long animation wind-up -> Effect
Infantry Grenades? Click -> Animation/Travel time/Timer -> Effect

There simply aren't any balanced abilities in the game that don't follow this pattern. In fact, when abilities are found that don't follow this pattern, they are almost always quickly patched to offer (or increase) a counter-play opportunity (OST Clusters, for example).

Furthermore, it's important to note the size of the counter-play opportunity is proportionate to the abilities strength. Weaker abilities generally offer a very short counter-play opportunity, in terms of reaction time window, whereas very powerful abilities almost invariably have very large windows to react in. A good example of this would be the difference between the Brummbar's "Bunker Buster Barrage" ability, and the Stuka Dive Bomb.
6 Apr 2020, 20:20 PM
#72
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

Or one could go all in and give the T34 a 100% abandon chance on ram :sibHyena:


Damn, that’s such a brave suggestion. I wonder how you could be so fearless and not care about backlash for saying that.

Truly an inspiration.
6 Apr 2020, 20:42 PM
#73
avatar of GGnore

Posts: 76

Ram does 320 damage on a penetrating hit and was implemented when the t34's main gun did 80 damage on penetration and only had a abysmal 80 penetration, clearly times and the t34 has changed.
6 Apr 2020, 20:55 PM
#74
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17619 | Subs: 9

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 20:42 PMGGnore
Ram does 320 damage on a penetrating hit and was implemented when the t34's main gun did 80 damage on penetration and only had a abysmal 80 penetration, clearly times and the t34 has changed.

Ram never did 320 damage.
That was Tiger Ace main gun.

Ram was also much more potent ability, immobilizing and destroying gun of opposing tank back then, its a glorified stun mind atm.
6 Apr 2020, 21:15 PM
#75
avatar of maskedmonkey2

Posts: 262

Leave ram alone. Replace rocket strafe with PTABs and the world is better place and we can all be friends again.
6 Apr 2020, 21:20 PM
#76
avatar of ikab

Posts: 40


Secondly, single-strafe can also be countered. Once the ability is clicked, there's the red smoke, as well as the actual plane entering the map. Both of these give the receiving player the option to do something after the ability is used.


In 2v2, the maps are small enough that if a player gets a successful ram off on an OKW heavy tank, the heavy is guaranteed to get hit by either IL-20 or Rocket Strafe. The OKW heavies simply don't have the movement speed to escape in time on most 2v2 maps, which are small enough that a plane + ram is a guaranteed combo.

There is no counterplay other than to try and avoid the ram. Given how easy it is to get a ram off, I think this combo is absurd in 2v2 personally. It basically makes OKW heavy tanks completely useless in 2v2 other than for the Tiger, because the Tiger actually has the acceleration and speed to escape the off-map once it gets rammed. It also completely negates the OKW heavy tank's role as the centerpiece of a push.

Curiously, this isn't a problem in 3v3 and 4v4 as the maps in these game modes are generally big enough that a the plane takes too long to reach the tank, and the heavy tank can escape in time (at least, the King Tiger generally can; the Jagdtiger is so slow it tends to get hit anyway).
6 Apr 2020, 21:58 PM
#77
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 958

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 21:20 PMikab
In 2v2, the maps are small enough that if a player gets a successful ram off on an OKW heavy tank, the heavy is guaranteed to get hit by either IL-20 or Rocket Strafe. The OKW heavies simply don't have the movement speed to escape in time on most 2v2 maps, which are small enough that a plane + ram is a guaranteed combo.

There is no counterplay other than to try and avoid the ram. Given how easy it is to get a ram off, I think this combo is absurd in 2v2 personally. It basically makes OKW heavy tanks completely useless in 2v2 other than for the Tiger, because the Tiger actually has the acceleration and speed to escape the off-map once it gets rammed. It also completely negates the OKW heavy tank's role as the centerpiece of a push.

Curiously, this isn't a problem in 3v3 and 4v4 as the maps in these game modes are generally big enough that a the plane takes too long to reach the tank, and the heavy tank can escape in time (at least, the King Tiger generally can; the Jagdtiger is so slow it tends to get hit anyway).


Yes, I agree with you. As I commented before:

In general, "1-click" counters need to be removed. Ram+Off map, like any other "1-click" combo, is OP by any definition; once clicked, there's no counter. The targeted vehicle will take massive amounts of damage - often enough to destroy a 720mp/260f/15 point vehicle.

Anything that powerful needs to have counter-play available AFTER the attacker has "clicked". In most situations, powerful abilities/combos like this have counter-play options - this is one of the few exceptions. The problem is, it's the combination of two abilities that makes it so devastating; so we're left in a situation where one needs to be nerfed a disproportionate amount in relation to its individual power.

My preference would be a ram nerf, as the off-map is currently in-line with similar abilities. Ram should likely be adjusted to have either much less range, be a "skill-shot" (i.e. straight line), or (as suggested by Stormjager) have different effects based on the targets remaining HP.
6 Apr 2020, 22:03 PM
#78
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

If you delay the skillshot more than the ram charge time, you solve the issue and highly skilled players can still pull it off.

It will make it a high reward, high risk combo. Because you should then start the combo with the rocket strafe, order the t34 to ram afterwards and hit both skills in the same spot.

The issue is not only the counterplay, but how easily it can be chained, it doent require multiple players coordination, it doesnt require a lot of anticipation too. Just hoard 200 muni and have a T34 ready to kamikaze.

It is rewarding enough to make players abuse it and its very hard to guess if the player has the skillshot to combo. RTS style countering is simply not possible.
7 Apr 2020, 00:25 AM
#79
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Just hoard 200mu and have 90fuel and 300mp ready to risk. And an enemy that can't spare any of their mainline infantry and 25mu.

Its literally the most expensive attempt to kill a heavy and its not even guaranteed....
7 Apr 2020, 00:40 AM
#80
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 536 | Subs: 1

Just hoard 200mu and have 90fuel and 300mp ready to risk. And an enemy that can't spare any of their mainline infantry and 25mu.

Its literally the most expensive attempt to kill a heavy and its not even guaranteed....


IL2 rocket strafe is 100 muni and you're acting as if the commander wouldnt be making t34s regardless?
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