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Ram + Offmap combo needs to be nerfed

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5 Apr 2020, 19:23 PM
#1
avatar of ikab

Posts: 40

The T34 + Ram combo is far too effective against heavy tanks in 2v2, in particular the OKW heavy tanks like the King Tiger and the Jagdtiger that, once rammed, can't escape the subsequent indirect (either IL20 or rocket strafe) because of their lack of speed.

It is ridiculous that ~3 minutes worth of fuel income and munitions income can take out 9 minutes worth of opportunity cost and fuel income. It is also especially egregious because it has effectively no counter; once the ram begins, every heavy tank the axis get other than the Tiger will die to the combo; this is partly why the Tiger is essentially the only heavy Axis tank built in high level 2v2s.

Possible ways to balance the combo:

- Remove Ram. I would recommend this the most: The T34 is an excellent unit that is about as effective as all the other mediums in the game, and soviets have excellent late game besides the T34. The T34 does not need ram. Ram is an artifact of the era in balance when T34s were half the effectiveness of the Panzer 4 and most of the soviet late game AT would be dealt with AT guns, heavy tanks or the SU85/76.
- Remove the stun from Ram; it now only slows for a set amount of time, enough so that a heavy tank can escape on a standard 2v2 map before the indirect hits.
- Reduce the amount of damage the rocket strafe/IL-20 does to heavy tanks. I don't like this option beacause I think these abilities should do lots of damage heavy tanks, it just becomes unbalanced when paired with an ability that makes these indirect options unavoidable.
5 Apr 2020, 19:28 PM
#3
avatar of ikab

Posts: 40

Lead attacks with infantry, instead of a solo slow unit with limited vision?


Both allied infantry and late game vision options are quite a bit better than the axis counterparts. Also, Ram has enough range that a good player will almost always be able to find an angle on a tank in a 2v2 map. Even played perfectly, it is too much of a restriction - in my opinion, as somebody who is top 5 ranked with both Axis and Allied (Soviet) factions in 2v2 automatch - to Axis heavy tanks.


At some point, you'll have to learn the game, balance isn't going to solve all your personal issues, because no one can patch noob out of you.


There's no need for that.
5 Apr 2020, 19:40 PM
#4
avatar of GGnore

Posts: 76

Lead attacks with infantry, instead of a solo slow unit with limited vision?

At some point, you'll have to learn the game, balance isn't going to solve all your personal issues, because no one can patch noob out of you.


Ikab is noob ? c'mon man that's no a reasonable reply, basically if the t34 gets vision of the big cat its game over if that's acceptable we should let elepahnts and jt's one shot any tank that it comes into 35 range of.
5 Apr 2020, 20:01 PM
#5
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 539 | Subs: 1

Always funny to see players who never breached top 50 like katiof criticize actual good players with real balance concerns. Which actively impact the balance of the game and break its substanitally.

The il2 strafe is bs, costs little to nothing to use, has no risk and even tigers get assraped. You cannot stop a ram once it is in motion, unless you somehow magically outspeed him in which case your opponent missplays or you onetap the t34.
5 Apr 2020, 20:08 PM
#6
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

Always funny to see players who never breached top 50 like katitof criticize actual good players with real balance concerns. Which actively impact the balance of the game and break its substanitally.

+1
But this is only the issue. Sadly the solution is far more complicated, no one should be judged beforehand by skill or prefernces. The argument is or isnt related to its sender as much as the latter wants to. To preamptively assume that the messanger is biased/flawed is the issue, the solution would be dead cold argumetation evaluation. (But thats quite boring and only few people can achieve that)

In defence of kat (not because he needs a defense though) i would say that he is right most of the time, he responds often and more often debunks some low skill player balance complaints.
5 Apr 2020, 20:15 PM
#7
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4144 | Subs: 3

I'd rather the strafes be nerfed as opposed to ram. I think the only thing that needs to be nerfed out of ram is the heavy/destroyed engine critical.
5 Apr 2020, 20:16 PM
#8
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13368 | Subs: 1

Actaully ram could replace cap as vet 1 ability for T-34/76 and T-34/85 could get something better.
5 Apr 2020, 20:32 PM
#9
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17629 | Subs: 9

Always funny to see players who never breached top 50 like katiof criticize actual good players with real balance concerns. Which actively impact the balance of the game and break its substanitally.

Boy, do I have a surprise for you, because my best was 42 in 2v2.
As axis.
5 Apr 2020, 20:34 PM
#10
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3386 | Subs: 1

I'd rather the strafes be nerfed as opposed to ram. I think the only thing that needs to be nerfed out of ram is the heavy/destroyed engine critical.


+1

Ram isn't OP at all, you're usually sacrificing a tank with it. Its the follow up after that's potentially a problem
5 Apr 2020, 20:41 PM
#11
avatar of ikab

Posts: 40



+1

Ram isn't OP at all, you're usually sacrificing a tank with it. Its the follow up after that's potentially a problem


Ram in itself isn't necessarily OP, it's the combo with off-map that has no counter which is essentially a guaranteed heavy tank kill on most 2v2 maps that is the problem.

Sacrificing a 90 fuel tank for a 240+ fuel tank is generally a trade you want to make.
5 Apr 2020, 20:52 PM
#12
5 Apr 2020, 20:59 PM
#13
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Problem is not necessarily ram but the IL2 strafe.
5 Apr 2020, 21:00 PM
#14
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3504 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Apr 2020, 20:41 PMikab


Ram in itself isn't necessarily OP, it's the combo with off-map that has no counter which is essentially a guaranteed heavy tank kill on most 2v2 maps that is the problem.

Sacrificing a 90 fuel tank for a 240+ fuel tank is generally a trade you want to make.


It doesn't stop Axis players to build heavy tanks every single game. Is it OP or simply frustrating to be outplayed on one move that can seal the game?

I don't know why Heavy tanks shouldn't share the same mechanism as any other unit in game. Because they are expensive? Well that is your problem if you lose such expensive unit like that.

Mines win game we all say, but mines are one of the cheapest artefact in game and we all seem fine with it. And in this particular case mines can save your heavy tanks from raming.
5 Apr 2020, 21:04 PM
#15
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3386 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Apr 2020, 20:41 PMikab


Ram in itself isn't necessarily OP, it's the combo with off-map that has no counter which is essentially a guaranteed heavy tank kill on most 2v2 maps that is the problem.


You literally just repeated what I said? I was agreeing with Shadow
5 Apr 2020, 21:06 PM
#16
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4144 | Subs: 3

And I don't wanna dump on the balance team, but right now they're not communicating to us at all. Blatantly OP things like the pak howie and IL2 rocket run are receiving no nerfs. Who knows why. So don't hold your breath on this thread.
5 Apr 2020, 21:47 PM
#17
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 789

And I don't wanna dump on the balance team, but right now they're not communicating to us at all. Blatantly OP things like the pak howie and IL2 rocket run are receiving no nerfs. Who knows why. So don't hold your breath on this thread.


Might be because half the stuff on this site is people claiming “X is OP” with no evidence.
Also might be because most threads devolve into people calling each other noobs in one form or another

I’m guilty of both. Not saying they aren’t problems though
5 Apr 2020, 21:51 PM
#18
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Apr 2020, 20:41 PMikab


Ram in itself isn't necessarily OP, it's the combo with off-map that has no counter which is essentially a guaranteed heavy tank kill on most 2v2 maps that is the problem.

Sacrificing a 90 fuel tank for a 240+ fuel tank is generally a trade you want to make.


Fun fact! The t34 can't ram with engine damage. Coupled with the fact that there is not a single hard at option the axis have that will ever not put the t34 below the crit threshold when combined with a Faust means that assuming you have literally an AT at all and a snare nearby (the likes that are on all core infantry of the axis, including replacement core infantry like fussies and even ostroppen) means that if the enemy feels comfortable diving a 90 fuel investment at your 200+ fuel investment with a stockpile of muni to call in their strafe.... You dun fucked up. That's what they call in the business "fucking up" because throwing that tank and NOT getting the ram off could mean the game. Screen for your tanks (yes, even your 70 range 280 damage ones) and you will find less of an issue. Or, fight over the munitions once in a while instead of turteling the fuel and expecting wumderwaffe to carry you to Moscow.
5 Apr 2020, 22:03 PM
#19
avatar of TheMux2

Posts: 139

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Apr 2020, 19:23 PMikab
The T34 + Ram combo is far too effective against heavy tanks in 2v2, in particular the OKW heavy tanks like the King Tiger and the Jagdtiger that, once rammed, can't escape the subsequent indirect (either IL20 or rocket strafe) because of their lack of speed.

It is ridiculous that ~3 minutes worth of fuel income and munitions income can take out 9 minutes worth of opportunity cost and fuel income. It is also especially egregious because it has effectively no counter; once the ram begins, every heavy tank the axis get other than the Tiger will die to the combo; this is partly why the Tiger is essentially the only heavy Axis tank built in high level 2v2s.

Possible ways to balance the combo:

- Remove Ram. I would recommend this the most: The T34 is an excellent unit that is about as effective as all the other mediums in the game, and soviets have excellent late game besides the T34. The T34 does not need ram. Ram is an artifact of the era in balance when T34s were half the effectiveness of the Panzer 4 and most of the soviet late game AT would be dealt with AT guns, heavy tanks or the SU85/76.
- Remove the stun from Ram; it now only slows for a set amount of time, enough so that a heavy tank can escape on a standard 2v2 map before the indirect hits.
- Reduce the amount of damage the rocket strafe/IL-20 does to heavy tanks. I don't like this option beacause I think these abilities should do lots of damage heavy tanks, it just becomes unbalanced when paired with an ability that makes these indirect options unavoidable.


Nah its fine, its been in the game since release and has never been op, the t-34 is garbage in genera. maybe dont attack move your heavy tanks to the front
5 Apr 2020, 22:08 PM
#20
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 478

The only reason the IL-2 Rocket Run should be as strong as it is would be if it was a skillshot and the player had to actively predict movement of the enemy armor. Ram isn't OP at all but its design is stupid and carries way to much RNG with it. You combine the two and it isn't a skillshot anymore but a cheesy mechanic to allow cheaper units to trade with higher cost units without actually outplaying the opponent by flanking their armor. Either nerf the IL-2 so Soviet Airborne won't continue to be over-performing or fix the way ram works. I could see Soviet Airborne becoming even more meta next patch with Airborne Guards being buffed.
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