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Suggestion: sight options for Ostheer and USF

Which idea do you like best for Ostheer?
Option Distribution Votes
51%
4%
5%
8%
29%
3%
Which idea do you like best for USF?
Option Distribution Votes
5%
9%
8%
4%
73%
1%
Total votes: 156
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
25 Mar 2020, 01:15 AM
#1
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1352 | Subs: 3

I find the non-doctrinal late game sight options severely lacking when playing Ostheer or USF with Captain tech. Below is a comparison between sight options for each faction. I'm excluding ultra light vehicles because they most likely won't survive the late game. I'm also excluding recon overflights and MG bunkers / pits because their purpose is not sustained sight. I'd also exclude Snipers because I don't like to use them, but added them anyway for a fair comparison.



From my point of view, the sight options of Soviets are the most powerful, while also directly tied to their AT units. UKF has the most abundant sight options and won't have a problem getting a unit in position for frontline spotting. OKW's sight options aren't the most effective aside from the UHU, but they're on durable units. Ostheer's sight options are either on fragile units or not very effective. USF must crutch on the M20 or Stuart for sight and only has a vetted AT gun as sight option if Captain tech was chosen.

I think sight differences are an important factor for why Captain tech is not very popular, Ostheer late game is lackluster and why certain commanders get neglected. I therefore came up with some ideas to make late game spotting more doable as Ostheer and USF:

Ostheer:
- Mortars can fire flares once T4 is researched.
- Ostheer Panthers can launch a flare with their "Nahverteidigungswaffe" grenade launcher.
- Pioneers can upgrade with a Recon package once T4 is researched. Locks out Flamethrower, increases their sight to 50 and swaps their MP40's for Kar98k's.

USF:
- Mortars can fire flares once Major is unlocked.
- The Lieutenant and Captain gain a sight toggle ability once Major is unlocked that increases their sight but slows them down to walking speed. Fits with them having a binocular.
- Rear Echelon gain the option to upgrade a Recon package once Major is unlocked. Takes up a weapon slot, increases their sight to 50, lets the mini AT mines they lay launch a tripwire flare when activated.

Let me know what you think.
25 Mar 2020, 01:16 AM
#2
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1352 | Subs: 3

Second poll question should read "Which idea do you like best for USF?" if any mod can adjust that.
25 Mar 2020, 01:31 AM
#3
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2793

I dislike the mortar flares idea for Ostheer because that’s a Soviet thing and it kinda feels cheap to copy that for the Ost mortar which also has counterbarrage.

I’d be up to maybe remove sight with vet from the 222 but give the scout car an observation package upgrade once T4 is up for a sight increase to 70 but also lock out spotting scopes from being used on it. That way you’d be able to pay for a spotter in the late game without having to grind the 222 vet with IS2s and SU85s around.

For USF, perhaps the Captain could get 5-10 extra sight vet 3?
25 Mar 2020, 01:55 AM
#4
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3221

I think the 222 and Stuart should lose veterancy sight and gain some vet zero sight option instead.

Having to vet up really undermines building them to act as scouts.
25 Mar 2020, 02:00 AM
#5
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 766

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2020, 01:55 AMLago
I think the 222 and Stuart should lose veterancy sight and gain some vet zero sight option instead.

Having to vet up really undermines building them to act as scouts.


Agree, except possibly M20 instead of Stuart for USF.
25 Mar 2020, 02:23 AM
#6
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1535 | Subs: 1

Personally I think Ost is fine since Pios get Vet 0 42 sight from the start and are usually in the mix either sweeping or repairing. For USF I think it's worth mentioning they get Pathfinders doctinally and I wouldn't discount the Major's recon ability. If anything I say Officer Sight Toggle and Pio Upgrade would be the way to go but don't feel it's strictly necessary
25 Mar 2020, 03:05 AM
#7
avatar of kitekaze

Posts: 375

While I think it's good option for engineers of all factions to be more useful, it will take away the necessary of light vehicle (Kubel, 222, Bren, M20, Scoutcar) and leave it with only anti-sniper duty.

So unless you can improve roles of light vehicle, I would choose no.
25 Mar 2020, 03:53 AM
#8
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 814

While I think it's good option for engineers of all factions to be more useful, it will take away the necessary of light vehicle (Kubel, 222, Bren, M20, Scoutcar) and leave it with only anti-sniper duty.

So unless you can improve roles of light vehicle, I would choose no.


Bren carrier actually has very poor LoS, same with AEC.

Brits have sniper and pyro Tommy for LoS.

25 Mar 2020, 03:55 AM
#9
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 814

I dislike the mortar flares idea for Ostheer because that’s a Soviet thing and it kinda feels cheap to copy that for the Ost mortar which also has counterbarrage.

I’d be up to maybe remove sight with vet from the 222 but give the scout car an observation package upgrade once T4 is up for a sight increase to 70 but also lock out spotting scopes from being used on it. That way you’d be able to pay for a spotter in the late game without having to grind the 222 vet with IS2s and SU85s around.

For USF, perhaps the Captain could get 5-10 extra sight vet 3?


222 is pretty easy to vet up in team games, just park it at the back to shoot planes and run off the odd sniper or infiltration squad. Planes give crazy vet for some reason
25 Mar 2020, 05:25 AM
#10
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 186



Bren carrier actually has very poor LoS, same with AEC.

Brits have sniper and pyro Tommy for LoS.



AEC has 50 sight. More than sniper and pyro tommies.
25 Mar 2020, 07:18 AM
#11
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 157

I'm more for the scout cars. Get the M20 & 222 a recon ability like the T70 (withou the soviet capping thingy). disables the gun, gets them 15-20 extra sight.

For the 222 it should always lock-out the spotting scopes.

Giving the lieutenant and captain a sight bonus at vet 3 instead of the damn running would also get my vote (10 extra sight?).
25 Mar 2020, 07:48 AM
#12
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2560 | Subs: 1

I would like to see some scouting buff for Ost. In the early/midgame the options are fine, pios and scout car and sniper are enough here. I wouldn't put the scouting on the panther because of the "just make a bunch of panthers" we see in team games (and they will be inderectly buffed in the next patch because their targets get nerfed). I would therefor say t4 flare on mortars, since the Ost mortar struggles a bit to be useful later on in the game.

For USF I voted for no changes. I Don't want to make their powerful flanks stronger and latergame they have non-doctrinal recon flights.
25 Mar 2020, 07:58 AM
#13
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8524 | Subs: 1

USF have access to the recon over flight allowing them to easily use off maps. They are more than fine.
25 Mar 2020, 11:07 AM
#14
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1352 | Subs: 3

I dislike the mortar flares idea for Ostheer because that’s a Soviet thing and it kinda feels cheap to copy that for the Ost mortar which also has counterbarrage.


True, the Ostheer Mortar already has strong stats and counterbarrage. USF Mortar could definitely get something to make it more attractive though. Currently it has worse stats and no actual veterancy ability besides faster smoke barrage cooldown.

Personally I think Ost is fine since Pios get Vet 0 42 sight from the start and are usually in the mix either sweeping or repairing. For USF I think it's worth mentioning they get Pathfinders doctinally and I wouldn't discount the Major's recon ability. If anything I say Officer Sight Toggle and Pio Upgrade would be the way to go but don't feel it's strictly necessary


USF probably has it a bit easier with its doctrinal sight options. Their 1v1 meta doctrines have either Pathfinders or Combined Arms (either mech/recon/cav was chosen 87% of the time in WCS), which are both good sight options. In terms of Ostheer's 1v1 meta commanders, there's G43 Pgrens with Lightning War and Jaeger Infantry and Recon Overflight in Spearhead, but with other popular doctrines like Infantry Doctrine, Mechanized Assault and Osttruppen, there's not much to do aside from keeping your 222 alive, Pio sight not being that impactful in the late game.

While I think it's good option for engineers of all factions to be more useful, it will take away the necessary of light vehicle (Kubel, 222, Bren, M20, Scoutcar) and leave it with only anti-sniper duty.

So unless you can improve roles of light vehicle, I would choose no.


Problem is, the durability of light vehicles differs greatly between factions. The 222 has 320-340 hp, while most other light vehicles have 400 hp. Captain tech doesn't have a vehicle with good sight at all. Something like the M3 has 65 sight with veterancy and can take an AT gun shot, but they're not expected to survive till the late game. Meanwhile Ostheer is supposed to keep their fragile 222 alive against UKF and Soviets, which have increased sight on many of their units

I'm more for the scout cars. Get the M20 & 222 a recon ability like the T70 (withou the soviet capping thingy). disables the gun, gets them 15-20 extra sight.

For the 222 it should always lock-out the spotting scopes.


I like this idea. I personally already keep my 222 on hold fire anyway when spotting with it, because it's hard to keep a solid frontline against Soviets and UKF if you lose it. I'd prefer at toggle with 20 extra sight to increase the buffer against SU85's and the like just a bit.

Giving the lieutenant and captain a sight bonus at vet 3 instead of the damn running would also get my vote (10 extra sight?).


Would like to see that, passive sprint has been gradually getting replaced on units cause it's kinda cheesy.
25 Mar 2020, 16:44 PM
#15
avatar of mortiferum

Posts: 559

I have to disagree on ost tank getting flares, tanks that can spot for itself sets a dangerous precedent.

Pioneer recon package does sound interesting though.

--------

I don't play US enough to really comment, but doesn't major already have an ability to call recon plane over his head?

Otherwise a Rifleman recon package unlocked after Major would be interesting. Sacrifices a weapon slot in exchange for ability to launch flare (Pfus style), MAYBE bonus vision for being in green cover?

In terms of cloak recon you got pathfinders.
25 Mar 2020, 16:59 PM
#16
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8524 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2020, 15:25 PMVipper
I would suggest that the flares from 251 strategic reserves need a reduction in there no reason to cost more than flares from soviet mortar (they could cost less).

I would also suggest that these flares become also available from command/medic bunkers.
25 Mar 2020, 17:04 PM
#17
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1352 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2020, 16:59 PMVipper
I would suggest that the flares from 251 strategic reserves need a reduction in there no reason to cost more than flares from soviet mortar (they could cost less).

I would also suggest that these flares become also available from command/medic bunkers.


Flares ordered from a medic / command bunker sounds like a really cool idea.
25 Mar 2020, 17:16 PM
#18
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8524 | Subs: 1



Flares ordered from a medic / command bunker sounds like a really cool idea.

Commander abilities that require a specific "secondary" unit to use are a bit odd because if one does not built that unit are sort of "useless".

That is why I suggested that the ability should also give flares to bunkers.

As I point out I do not see why the flares cost 60 munition double of what the mortar one costs.

Finally if one compares this 251 with IRHT in Sneakeye mod think it will see that it will probably be fine.
25 Mar 2020, 21:40 PM
#19
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4087 | Subs: 1

Give usf the increased sight in cover bonus that used to be in recon company, for ost I think I agree a 222 upgrade via battle phase would be great. Even a lock down mode kinda thing
25 Mar 2020, 22:06 PM
#20
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8524 | Subs: 1

Give usf the increased sight in cover bonus that used to be in recon company, for ost I think I agree a 222 upgrade via battle phase would be great. Even a lock down mode kinda thing

Agree, I see to much overlap between reckon and airborne and replacing IR&Pathfinder with vision/arty/smoke call-in "observation package" for riflemen would be better imo.
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