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Bren and Vickers K not firing on the move for elite infantry

22 Mar 2020, 10:02 AM
#1
avatar of Olekman
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Posts: 117

  • Vickers K is not fired on the move by any infantry units which normally fire their LMGs on the move.
  • Bren gun is only fired on the move by Commandos and Airlanding Officer. Any other infantry units which normally fire their LMGs on the move - they do not.

In Vickers K case, when the weapon is picked up it always adds the same slot item, regardless of any unit types a given squad may have. This might be intentional behaviour, similar to how Panzerschreck doesn't have any "elite" variants. Still, it is a strange exception for Vickers K among all the other LMGs.

In Bren gun case, there are 3 different slot items a squad may receive when picking it up:
  • commando_bren_light_machine_gun_mp: exclusive to Commandos and Airlanding Officer, it can be fired on the move and has very high accuracy to reflect the "Heavy Weapon Experts" perk.
  • sapper_bren_light_machine_gun_mp: theoretically exclusive to Royal Engineers, it has roughly 90% accuracy of the Commando variant at all ranges, but cannot be fired on the move. Bonus "feature" - Soviet Combat Engineers and USF Assault Engineers also receive this variant, because they all share the "engineer" unit type.
  • tommy_bren_light_machine_gun_mp: what everyone else gets. Roughly 60% accuracy of the Commando variant at long and mid range, about 76% at short range, cannot be fired on the move.

Simply put, whenever a fire-on-the-move infantry squad (Paratroopers, Rangers, Obersoldaten, Airborne Guards) picks up a Bren or Vickers K, they perform exactly the same with it as any other squad - bar the commando and engineer units above - and can't fire them on the move.

I'm not saying that those fire-on-the-move squads should use the same Bren variant as the Commandos (again, it's extra strong to reflect "Heavy Weapon Experts"), but them not being able to fire those guns on the move seems like unintended behaviour.

Proposed fix: create separate weapon profiles and slot items for Vickers K and Bren that can fire on the move. Add a requirement action to the on_pickup_actions that grants the fire-on-the-move variant if "lmg_user_fires_on_the_move" unit type is present in squad's loadout. In Bren case, also add a requirement that the commando unit type is not present, so Commandos and Airlanding Officer receive their proper powered-up version of Bren. I can provide the working xml changes if needed.
22 Mar 2020, 10:14 AM
#2
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15225 | Subs: 7

Elites don't fire on the move LMGs which aren't native to them.
Never did.
Nor should they.
22 Mar 2020, 10:28 AM
#3
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8291 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Mar 2020, 10:02 AMOlekman
...

In Bren gun case, there are 3 different slot items a squad may receive when picking it up:
...

I am under the impressions to that Ro.E get a bren similar to IS.


Bren Guns are being adjusted to be less potent at range, though their price is being reduced to match their new performance.
• Sappers now use Tommy Bren Gun on pick up
22 Mar 2020, 10:39 AM
#4
avatar of Olekman
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Posts: 117

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Mar 2020, 10:14 AMKatitof
Elites don't fire on the move LMGs which aren't native to them.
Never did.
Nor should they.


Here's a quick proof of Obersoldaten firing DP-28 on the move and not firing either the Vickers K or Bren. It's easily replicable with any LMG and infantry that has "lmg_user_fires_on_the_move" unit type.




jump backJump back to quoted post22 Mar 2020, 10:28 AMVipper

I am under the impressions to that Ro.E get a bren similar to IS.


Bren Guns are being adjusted to be less potent at range, though their price is being reduced to match their new performance.
• Sappers now use Tommy Bren Gun on pick up


Perhaps it was accidentally reverted? In game files it gives them the sapper version with extra accuracy:



22 Mar 2020, 10:48 AM
#5
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2636

Fully loaded Vickers K gun with full ammo is about 14.5 kg. No way in hell you’re firing that thing while running with any accuracy without training on it for months.

For comparison I’m actually pretty strong and tall and when I was in the greek army we did some fire and manuever with the 4.5 kg G3A3 and it was a bitch to fire on the move while trying not to fall over because you can’t pay attention to where you’re stepping all while you’re trying to manuever the gun around.

Too long didn’t read: Nobody can fire on the move with accuracy unless the terrain is good. Humans can’t multitask. Therefore the way you use the gun needs to be 2nd nature to th point where the weapon is an extension of yourself so that you can both fire accurately and move around, therefore training with your specific gun is extremely crucial to learn how it handles and behaves.

As for the game and back on topic, I agree with Katitof that it’s probably intentional since firing on the move is so difficult if you’re going for it you at least need a gun you’re familiar with and can manage. A foreign gun you’ve never used before is gonna surprise you with recoil/handling/spread etc and you’d probably waste too much ammo trying to learn on the spot, so I agree with the game not allowing elites to fire foreign weapons on the move.
22 Mar 2020, 11:00 AM
#6
avatar of Olekman
Modmaker Badge

Posts: 117

Fully loaded Vickers K gun with full ammo is about 14.5 kg. No way in hell you’re firing that thing while running with any accuracy without training on it for months.

For comparison I’m actually pretty strong and tall and when I was in the greek army we did some fire and manuever with the 4.5 kg G3A3 and it was a bitch to fire on the move while trying not to fall over because you can’t pay attention to where you’re stepping all while you’re trying to manuever the gun around.

Too long didn’t read: Nobody can fire on the move with accuracy unless the terrain is good. Humans can’t multitask. Therefore the way you use the gun needs to be 2nd nature to th point where the weapon is an extension of yourself so that you can both fire accurately and move around, therefore training with your specific gun is extremely crucial to learn how it handles and behaves.

As for the game and back on topic, I agree with Katitof that it’s probably intentional since firing on the move is so difficult if you’re going for it you at least need a gun you’re familiar with and can manage. A foreign gun you’ve never used before is gonna surprise you with recoil/handling/spread etc and you’d probably waste too much ammo trying to learn on the spot, so I agree with the game not allowing elites to fire foreign weapons on the move.


I wouldn't say it's intentional, because all squads with unit_type "lmg_user_fires_on_the_move" can in fact fire any LMGs on the move, with the exception on Vickers K and Bren. Squads that have this unit type are: Paratroopers, Rangers, Obersoldaten, Airborne Guards, Commandos and Airlanding Officer.

Here's another example: Paras firing LMG42, but not firing Bren, while on the move
22 Mar 2020, 11:41 AM
#7
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 725

Fully loaded Vickers K gun with full ammo is about 14.5 kg. No way in hell you’re firing that thing while running with any accuracy without training on it for months.

For comparison I’m actually pretty strong and tall and when I was in the greek army we did some fire and manuever with the 4.5 kg G3A3 and it was a bitch to fire on the move while trying not to fall over because you can’t pay attention to where you’re stepping all while you’re trying to manuever the gun around.

Too long didn’t read: Nobody can fire on the move with accuracy unless the terrain is good. Humans can’t multitask. Therefore the way you use the gun needs to be 2nd nature to th point where the weapon is an extension of yourself so that you can both fire accurately and move around, therefore training with your specific gun is extremely crucial to learn how it handles and behaves.

As for the game and back on topic, I agree with Katitof that it’s probably intentional since firing on the move is so difficult if you’re going for it you at least need a gun you’re familiar with and can manage. A foreign gun you’ve never used before is gonna surprise you with recoil/handling/spread etc and you’d probably waste too much ammo trying to learn on the spot, so I agree with the game not allowing elites to fire foreign weapons on the move.


This is a good point, and some interesting perspective from a serving soldier (thank you for your service in NATO btw)

However we also have obers running around with StGs and giant infared battery packs like they're nothing. Interestingly enough I watched a forgotten weapons YouTube video on a similar US pack used on iwojima and Ian the host said all WW2 packs were lugged up to defensive positions then used somewhere like a forward defensive position to see at night. To heavy to use otherwise.
22 Mar 2020, 11:51 AM
#8
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2636

This is a good point, and some interesting perspective from a serving soldier (thank you for your service in NATO btw)


Just to clarify in Greece every male has to serve 9 months in the armed forces where you go through active training and basically sit around in case something happens. The only ones who go to NATO expeditions etc are professionals.

Off topic I know.
22 Mar 2020, 11:52 AM
#9
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8291 | Subs: 1

Regardless of any realism issues (and no one can fire a PTRS unless in prone position with any accuracy) this is a nice catch and it should be looked at.

(edited to make some people happy)
22 Mar 2020, 12:30 PM
#10
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 725

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Mar 2020, 11:52 AMVipper
(and no one can fire a PTRS unless in prone position)


I can assure you that's quite incorrect, there are YouTube videos of crazy slavs in the Ukraine doing just that.
22 Mar 2020, 12:47 PM
#11
avatar of Olekman
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Posts: 117

I double checked the Brens used by Royal Engineers and figured it out. It was indeed fixed, but only for the Brens picked up from the weapon rack. Any Brens picked up off the ground still grant the old, more accurate Sapper variant! And just as I mentioned before, this variant also applies to Combat Engineers and Assault Engineers, as they posses the "engineer" unit type.

I tested it by changing the sapper's Bren variant damage to 555, so it would basically one-shot any infantry. Sappers using Brens from racks behaved normally, while those using Brens off the ground were indeed melting squads left and right.

Here's a test without any tuning mods involved, just Cheat Commands. Note that the squad with Brens from racks started the fight earlier, yet still finished and achieved veterancy later.

22 Mar 2020, 13:01 PM
#12
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8291 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Mar 2020, 12:47 PMOlekman
I double checked the Brens...

Nice find
22 Mar 2020, 13:06 PM
#13
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 37

Fully loaded Vickers K gun with full ammo is about 14.5 kg. No way in hell you’re firing that thing while running with any accuracy without training on it for months.

Some stats: 1919 .30cal is 14Kg and MG34 is 12Kg.
22 Mar 2020, 19:58 PM
#14
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2190

Obers can fire a DP1928 on the move.... everyday learning something new
22 Mar 2020, 20:17 PM
#15
avatar of elchino7
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Posts: 7104 | Subs: 1

I like when people find bugs.
I love when people propose actual solutions to it.
22 Mar 2020, 20:20 PM
#16
avatar of Olekman
Modmaker Badge

Posts: 117

Obers can fire a DP1928 on the move.... everyday learning something new


Not only DP-28, but any LMG that's not Vickers K or Bren. :D Same with Paratroopers, Rangers and Airborne Guards. Only the Commandos and Airlanding Officer are better in this regard, because the only LMG they cannot fire on the move is Vickers K. In fact, the only faction without any fire-LMG-on-the-move squads is Ostheer since addition of the Soviet Airborne commander.

I know it might sound like I'm nitpicking, but it's just a question of consistency - all the other LMGs can be fired on the move by those elite infantry squads, so why not Vickers K and Bren? They don't seem that much different, so I assume it's an oversight.
22 Mar 2020, 20:51 PM
#17
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8291 | Subs: 1

Drop able weapons are bit of mess.

I had suggested some year ago ago that these weapons should be balanced for mainline infatry and that "elite" infatry should get a better versions and support troops a worse version.
22 Mar 2020, 22:04 PM
#18
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 193

Obers can fire a DP1928 on the move.... everyday learning something new

:rofl:

Now I have to steal some DP-28s just to make a SU player rage. Double LMG Obers is scary scary.
22 Mar 2020, 22:41 PM
#19
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2190

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Mar 2020, 20:20 PMOlekman

In fact, the only faction without any fire-LMG-on-the-move squads is Ostheer since addition of the Soviet Airborne commander.



Wait, airborne guards fire their DP28 on the move? I always thought they could not and said "damn that sucks"
22 Mar 2020, 23:23 PM
#20
avatar of Musti

Posts: 199


Wait, airborne guards fire their DP28 on the move? I always thought they could not and said "damn that sucks"

Yep, they also fire MG42s, M34s and M1919s on the move
Obers/Paras/Airbourne Guards/Commandos can all fire MG42/Mg34/1919/DP28 when on the move
Commandos/Air Officer also get the Bren
Vickers K can't be fired on the move by anyone.
I'm not sure about MG42/DP28 on-the-move stats, if they are "elite" or anything like that, and how they compare to Commando Bred and Para 1919.

I've pointed that out some time ago, but noone paid any attention to it so I thought it was well known.
Guess I should have made a thread about it :)
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