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Tank Destroyer Standardization

19 Mar 2020, 15:36 PM
#61
avatar of SaintPauli

Posts: 13

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Mar 2020, 06:23 AMAradan

But this will remove diversity from the game.
Turret TD (Panther, FF + Jackson) allways win versus SU-85/JgPzIV.

Panther does not have the advantage vs SU-85. It’s very risky diving a 180fuel tank into the Soviet lines.

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Mar 2020, 06:23 AMAradan
If you want more tanks battles, lets make T-34/85 stock unit and SU-85 doctrinal.

I agree that the T-34/85 should be a stock unit, but so should the SU-85. 😊
(all armies need a heavy tank destroyer)
19 Mar 2020, 15:39 PM
#62
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2413 | Subs: 1


c. UHU will be changed. Now it generates normal sight. Don't forget T70 can nearlly generate same sight, SU85 can spot for itself with same sight.


No the su85 cannot spot with the same sight. Focused sight let's you see in a straight line directly in front of you not a 120 degree arc


Ostheer:
a. They have the sight because they suck at fighing (maybe worst fighting unit for its price) and Ostheer lacks in sight units. Instead of giving them something else they made Pios be recoons-troups. I am no fan of that too. Better remove Scope, give 222 same sight-ability as T70.

b. The sight becomes 60 I think, on a vehicle able to take 2 shots and then it is gone... for me no big deal? Is it? 222 is a bad unit with a lot if potetioal to balace Ostheer with passive stuff for lategame.

c. German recoon is worst ingame. Let me explain: Alliis AA is way more potential as Ostheer's and OKW's.
You don't believe? Testing it needs you 10 min.


Yeah we get it, you think everything German isn't good enough. Maybe you would think differently if you played other factions just as much as ostheer
19 Mar 2020, 15:44 PM
#63
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 725

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Mar 2020, 08:28 AMVipper

Challenging other people views is fine as long as it done in constructive way and not in "forum warrior" way.

Challenging other people and not their view is simply non constructive.


Nope the distance FF is not that big specially since it can delete a medium with one reload. And there reason why it feel to you that FF is up vs mediums is simply because other TDs are OP vs mediums.

If you are losing FF to PzIV you are probably doing something wrong.

Actually a Panther with the sight, accuracy, damage and vet bonuses of the FF would be OP vs mediums even it had that same reload and did not have Tulips. A vet 3 FF kills a medium with 2 reloads.

I can make a mode for to you to test.

So now when I highlight actually it's pretty weak vs closing in meds due to reload and fact tulips need to be still vs an easy to hit target you instead move the goalposts talking about vet3 bonuses in vacuum tests. But I'm not taking the bait

I'm getting flashbacks of the Sherman 76 thread already. Is there a Sherman variant in this game you don't think is over performing?
19 Mar 2020, 15:47 PM
#64
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 889


Panther does not have the advantage vs SU-85. It’s very risky diving a 180fuel tank into the Soviet lines.


Proposed 60 range Panther. ;)
19 Mar 2020, 15:50 PM
#65
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1162


Yes I am salty and I'm not interested in balancing because I disagree with your incredible balance opinions. I should be put in jail.


I will not stop you. ;D


It's a free passive maphack. Not sure what the 222 does better. Still it's at vet 5 so nobody complains.


It's a free passive for some sight on mini-map, that is why nobody complains.


No proof of soviet abilities being game destroying.


Using Su85 sight+vet1 + ISU152 is kind of game destroying. It is as stupid as Ostheer's scope and shouldn't be ingame.


80 sight is not normal sight and T70 does not get anywhere near 80 sight and neither does the su85 which also gets a small cone and a big cooldown debuff when it activates it.


UHU can't fight and can be easy killed by passive fire. T70 is more expensive, but benefits by all other mechanices it has. I am not sure if I still would take T70 over a UHU.

I am not sure. SU85 has 60 range, with cone it get's 70 sight-range. With Vet1 + ability it gets boosted *1,4 to ~100.

For me that is a clear winner, because it can still move and push with main-force.


Still there, still something very useful and unique.


Jadgpanzer's main-vet needs cammo. Nothing special then, a bonus with handy-cap.


Pios are perfectly fine and the 222 is perfectly fine as is. Stock T70 sight would be a huge buff that would be unfair.


In my opinion it would come with Pios sight gets nerfed and scope gets removed. Less unfair than other mechanics, when all tank-hunters have 50 range and can't benefit as your enemy. lol


Yeah the Quad AA is OP at shooting down planes, that's got nothing to do with UKF/USF AA and the Soviet player doesn't always get the quad AA in 1v1.


Centaur also performs better than Ostwind as AA. Also does Bofors do now a good job while OKW-base sucks.

And yes, you are right, in 1vs1 you don't build it all the time, but in larger game-modes one Quad performs like multible Ostwinds and that is broken as hell.
19 Mar 2020, 15:53 PM
#66
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1162


No the su85 cannot spot with the same sight. Focused sight let's you see in a straight line directly in front of you not a 120 degree arc


With Vet1 you get 100 sight. :P UHU is cheap, that is the only thing it really could overperform.



Yeah we get it, you think everything German isn't good enough. Maybe you would think differently if you played other factions just as much as ostheer


There are lot of mechanics Germans overperform, but at the moment the main-problems are on some other fractions got too much buffs and abilities, or commander-line-ups.

I was the only one asking patch-team to fix british grenade last patch, because it had no min. range. Many people didn't know that, but it was so broken. There are brutal abnormalities ingame.

Edit: I have the urge to focus on obviously discrepancies. e.g. broken Preisleistungsverhältnis etc.

19 Mar 2020, 16:17 PM
#67
avatar of SaintPauli

Posts: 13

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Mar 2020, 15:47 PMAradan
Proposed 60 range Panther. ;)

In most cases true, because it has a turret, but I also cost more. SU-85 would have faster rate of fire + self spot. And since I also proposed a nerf to the Panther health/armour the SU-85 will win if the Panter engages in a frontal slowdown. 😊
19 Mar 2020, 16:28 PM
#68
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8287 | Subs: 1


So now when I highlight actually it's pretty weak vs closing in meds due to reload and fact tulips need to be still vs an easy to hit target you instead move the goalposts talking about vet3 bonuses in vacuum tests. But I'm not taking the bait

I'm getting flashbacks of the Sherman 76 thread already. Is there a Sherman variant in this game you don't think is over performing?

If you having problem killing PzIV with FF you are probably doing some thing wrong.

And I am not" baiting" you, you are "challenging" me according to your own words.

Now can we pls skip the personal comment and return to this which is about turning the FF/Panther/M36/SU-85 into specialized heavy tank hunters pls?
19 Mar 2020, 18:14 PM
#69
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2413 | Subs: 1



With Vet1 you get 100 sight



Yes... Only in a straight line like I just said and that requires the tracking ability...
19 Mar 2020, 19:26 PM
#70
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1162



Yes... Only in a straight line like I just said and that requires the tracking ability...


You can't compare that. The SU85 ability is extrem for the fact that you have other non-doc stuff for sight.

Sniper, Mortar, T70
19 Mar 2020, 19:56 PM
#71
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2413 | Subs: 1



You can't compare that. The SU85 ability is extrem for the fact that you have other non-doc stuff for sight.

Sniper, Mortar, T70


I didn't make a comparison. I just explained how the ability works

Ost has pios, sniper, scout car, and plenty of doctrinal options

What does any of this have to do with OPs suggestion? Su85 is on topic, stop whining about t70 and mortar flares, make your own thread if they are such a problem?
19 Mar 2020, 20:22 PM
#72
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1162



I didn't make a comparison. I just explained how the ability works

Ost has pios, sniper, scout car, and plenty of doctrinal options

What does any of this have to do with OPs suggestion? Su85 is on topic, stop whining about t70 and mortar flares, make your own thread if they are such a problem?


And with Sniper I mean mainly the light-flare, while also the soviet sniper has more sight as other. I really don't understand all that sight boost-units and abilities.

Because in 2vs2 etc. they can boost their Allii too hard. That is also why I want Ost's scope removed from game, it is a gimmick simply gets worse in larger multiplayer e.g. with OKW and their 60+ ranger.

Edit: That all has something to do with the thread. All that tank-hunters only perform because of sight. While germans have worst acc. on the move while have less range AND sight-options + smaller squad-size there is not only a line-up problem, BUT also that someone needs more micro and tactic than his counter-part + having more risc.
19 Mar 2020, 22:21 PM
#73
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2413 | Subs: 1


Edit: That all has something to do with the thread. All that tank-hunters only perform because of sight. While germans have worst acc. on the move while have less range AND sight-options + smaller squad-size there is not only a line-up problem, BUT also that someone needs more micro and tactic than his counter-part + having more risc.


Usf is the only faction benefiting from better on the move accuracy. That is not an axis v allies issue...

The rest of that is just more biased statements that don't have anything to do with TDs. Yes TDs require spotting, but most of the time you're doing that with your regular Frontline infantry

Axis has plenty of recon options anyway, there's no truth to what you're saying. If you don't think you have enough recon, get spotting scope
19 Mar 2020, 22:47 PM
#74
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1162



Usf is the only faction benefiting from better on the move accuracy. That is not an axis v allies issue...

The rest of that is just more biased statements that don't have anything to do with TDs. Yes TDs require spotting, but most of the time you're doing that with your regular Frontline infantry

Axis has plenty of recon options anyway, there's no truth to what you're saying. If you don't think you have enough recon, get spotting scope


Boy... can you please check the stats of some vehicles and come back? It starts to annoy me.
19 Mar 2020, 22:55 PM
#75
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2413 | Subs: 1


Boy... can you please check the stats of some vehicles and come back? It starts to annoy me.


Lol "boy"? Just stop dude. What are you even talking about? Moving accuracy? Su85 is .5, FF is .55 which is probably only cause it has one of the longest reloads in the game. USF is the only one getting treated to the .75 on their TDs AND mediums

You need to specify which vehicles you're talking about, since youre whining about literally the entire German roster

Can you try to be less biased? It's been annoying for a long time already
19 Mar 2020, 23:41 PM
#76
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1162

Panther 0,035/0,045/0,06 move *0,5 Ost vet nothing | OKW vet5 +25% moving accuracy.

FF 0,04/0,05/0,06 move *0,55 vet3 +30% accuracy.

SU85 0,04/0,045/0,055 move *0,5 vet2 +30% accuracy

Jackson 0,035/0,045/0,05 move *0,75 vet2 +30% accuracy.


For me that looks like worst stats of all?

Panther has worst accuracy of all, only OKW Panther with vet5 is better one the move then the rest. But only versus vet0.

For less range and worst acc. that is some kind of poor.
20 Mar 2020, 00:04 AM
#77
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2413 | Subs: 1


For me that looks like worst stats of all?


Cause you're only comparing the stat you feel like talking about. 3/4 of those units have negligible armor to anything besides bullets and they have 640 health. One of them doesn't, and that's the one that has less accuracy. Coincidence? Probably not


Panther has worst accuracy of all, only OKW Panther with vet5 is better one the move then the rest. But only versus vet0.

For less range and worst acc. that is some kind of poor.


I have said numerous times the panther should get an accuracy bonus at vet 2 or 3. But those TDs should still have slightly better accuracy, they can't afford to miss as much as a Panther can

20 Mar 2020, 07:45 AM
#78
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15217 | Subs: 7

For me that looks like worst stats of all?

That's because you've completely ignored all other stats, which panther has vastly and incomparably superior values of.
20 Mar 2020, 11:36 AM
#79
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1162

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Mar 2020, 07:45 AMKatitof

That's because you've completely ignored all other stats, which panther has vastly and incomparably superior values of.


What Panther does better is, that it can bounce mediums on max. range, while other tank-hunters can simply troll them by outranging. But it also has more HP so other tank-hunters can't solo him without any risk.

Overall, he doesn't fill the gap, the range problem. And I think it doesn't has to, BUT!

At the moment there could be made:

a. StuG G range up to 55, remove "weak-point", instead give one high-explosive shot on target (stats of StuG E but fast shell) or something else... something not that dominant but kind of useful.

[edit: I like that StuG has bad pen, so you need Panther etc.; but also an timed ability for e.g. 20% more pens but damage down to 120 - 140 could work. We have weak-spot on PaK40, that should be enough]

and

b. Panther mobile acc. up to 0,75% so it really becomes a hunter. (OKW vet5 +10% acc. instead of current)
20 Mar 2020, 22:42 PM
#80
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 765

Just give the Panther an APCR shell (PzGr. 40) ability with greater base accuracy and penetration, a la M36. There. Any other sort of buff to the Panther will absolutely require durability nerfs.
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