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Tank Destroyer Standardization

17 Mar 2020, 23:39 PM
#1
avatar of SaintPauli

Posts: 13

Tank Destroyer Standardization

The game is designed around asymmetrical fractions. We all like this difference in gameplay but admittedly it creates problems in terms of balance and creates “crutch units” that fill the holes in the army composition (Elephant, Panic Puma). I think that we can keep the asymmetrical strengths and weaknesses of the fractions and still have equality in terms of army capabilities. In terms of balance, I think that the biggest problem right now is the tank destroyers. With that in mind I propose the following standardization.
(I acknowledge that there are other glaring balance problems, but please keep to the topic)

All armies should have medium tank destroyer and a heavy tank destroyer. In terms of availability and cost efficiency each unit should be designed to counter a specific set of targets. This is how I envision the unit tiers:

Heavy Tank Destroyers (Range 60 - 200 damage)
Jackson, Sherman Firefly, SU-85, Panther

Medium Tank Destroyers (Range 50 - 160 damage)
M10, SU-76, StuG G, Jagdpanzer IV

Heavy Tanks
Health divisible by 200

Medium Tanks
Health divisible by 160


Heavy tank destroyers should do 200 damage and have a range of 60. In terms of targets, all heavy tanks health should be divisible by 200. This will make the heavy tank destroyers more cost-efficient vs the heavy tanks without improving the efficiency vs medium tanks. Changes in rate of fire should be made to keep current time to kill vs heavy tanks the same while nerfing the time to kill medium tanks. In terms of units this mostly effects the panthers’ offensive capabilities. The health of the panther should in term be brought down to 800 and the armour should also be significantly lowered. The machine gunner could be removed to emphasize the tank destroying nature of the unit.

Medium tank destroyers should do 160 damage and have a range of 50. This means nerfing the range of the Jagdpanzer IV and the SU-76. The SU-76 should, however, have its damage increased to 160. Currently the Brits and the USF does not have a stock medium tanks destroyer. The M10 should be given to both of those amies as a stock unit (this alleviates the problem of the Jackson/Firefly having to counter to all armour)

Addendum: The Panic Puma is designated as a range 50 tank destroyer. Its range should be brought down to 40 to prevent it from countering all light tanks. At the same time, it should be mad available to Wehr as a stock unit.


- SaintPauli
17 Mar 2020, 23:41 PM
#2
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2793

Way too complicated and Relic won’t allow it.
17 Mar 2020, 23:46 PM
#3
avatar of SaintPauli

Posts: 13

Way too complicated and Relic won’t allow it.

It’s mostly changing the panther and adding the M10 as a stock unit to Brits and USF :)
18 Mar 2020, 00:06 AM
#4
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15442 | Subs: 7

You aren't getting stock puma for ost, regardless of how you dress it up.
But so far, that's most creative "gib stock puma for ost" thread so far out of 100s before.
18 Mar 2020, 00:20 AM
#5
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2793


It’s mostly changing the panther and adding the M10 as a stock unit to Brits and USF :)


Way too complicated and Relic won’t allow it. :)
18 Mar 2020, 00:29 AM
#6
avatar of SaintPauli

Posts: 13


Way too complicated and Relic won’t allow it. :)

I can easily summarize the system. Heavy tank destroyers do 200 damage and have 60 range. Medium tank destroyers do 160 and have 50 range. That should be easy for new players to learn.

Now please try to summarize the units as they currently are…

18 Mar 2020, 00:29 AM
#7
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2793


I can easily summarize the system. Heavy tank destroyers do 200 damage and have 60 range. Medium tank destroyers do 160 and have 50 range. That should be easy for new players to learn.

Now please try to summarizing the units as they currently are…



Way too complicated and Relic won’t allow it. :) :)
18 Mar 2020, 00:32 AM
#8
avatar of SaintPauli

Posts: 13


Way too complicated and Relic won’t allow it. :) :)

Relic has outsourced the balancing part. MOD team is in charge. 😊
18 Mar 2020, 00:36 AM
#9
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 535

Interesting,make unit have more different type
18 Mar 2020, 00:36 AM
#10
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2793


Relic has outsourced the balancing part. MOD team is in charge. 😊


I’m curious, does the part “relic won’t allow it” make you think “hmmmmm maybe the balance team can’t do whatever they want”?
18 Mar 2020, 02:04 AM
#11
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7194 | Subs: 1

spongebobmagic.jpeg

SCOPE

18 Mar 2020, 05:03 AM
#12
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 899

SCOPE


Maybe not for this patch; but its pretty clear that TDs in general need some changes, and they can only happen all at once.
18 Mar 2020, 06:21 AM
#13
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 848



Maybe not for this patch; but its pretty clear that TDs in general need some changes, and they can only happen all at once.

as long as ATGs have the same range and damage as TDs I fail to see that TDs in "general" need changes, they work as intended, you people need to seriously get good.
18 Mar 2020, 06:35 AM
#14
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 899

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Mar 2020, 06:21 AMzerocoh
as long as ATGs have the same range and damage as TDs I fail to see that TDs in "general" need changes, they work as intended, you people need to seriously get good.


ATGs lose a lot of their effectiveness in the late-game when artillery becomes available. In smaller games, it's mostly due to things like Pak-Howitzers, Scotts, and Walking Stukas, while in team games it's pretty much all rocket arty.
18 Mar 2020, 07:20 AM
#15
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 1091 | Subs: 1

I'm against this idea. Something has to be done about TDs, yes, but not standartization. The only TD that is causing real issues at the moment is the Jackson. Afterwards Panther and SU76 could use some tweaks, but a complete rework of all AT vehicles would only create issues.
Also if the AT counter becomes standardized then vehicle play becomes dull, and this would make the game progressively more boring the longer it goes.

Mainline infantry is also mostly fine at the moment (hickups here and there, sure), but they are far from standardized.
18 Mar 2020, 08:23 AM
#16
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8524 | Subs: 1


The problem is a bit more complicated.

Heavy TDs need to less cost effective vs medium tank. The reason is that else in the long run they will always be a better choice of medium TDs. Increasing their damage is simply not enough since they will cause enough alpha damage to mediums to force them away.

Since they need they need high penetration their chance to hit medium needs to lower. So they need an accuracy reduction.

The JP having its range reduce to 50 is also problematic since the units is designed to counter M36/Su-85/FF because OKW do not have a 60 range ATG as other faction do.

Finally introducing a medium TD to all faction would only make sense if all faction had the same tools in other sector also and they do not. For instance they do not all have light tanks.
18 Mar 2020, 08:27 AM
#17
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 814

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Mar 2020, 08:23 AMVipper

The problem is a bit more complicated.

Heavy TDs need to less cost effective vs medium tank. The reason is that else in the long run they will always be a better choice of medium TDs. Increasing their damage is simply not enough since they will cause enough alpha damage to mediums to force them away.

Since they need they need high penetration their chance to hit medium needs to lower. So they need an accuracy reduction.

The JP having its range reduce to 50 is also problematic since the units is designed to counter M36/Su-85/FF because OKW do not have a 60 range ATG as other faction do.

Finally introducing a medium TD to all faction would only make sense if all faction had the same tools in other sector also and they do not. For instance they do not all have light tanks.


What use will a 8 second reload FF be if it can't hit anything? It already is vulnerable to mediums closing in but you act as if SU85 and FF have Jackson or panther mobility.

They don't
18 Mar 2020, 08:32 AM
#18
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8524 | Subs: 1



What use will a 8 second reload FF be if it can't hit anything? It already is vulnerable to mediums closing in but you act as if SU85 and FF have Jackson or panther mobility.

They don't

For the 100 time FF has access to Tulips and talking about its 8 second reload without talking about its 200 damage (that become even more with vet) is misleading.

Finally the OP suggested that these units become heavy Tank TDs and thus they should be more vulnerable to mediums, else their are simply counter to everything.
18 Mar 2020, 08:34 AM
#19
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15442 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Mar 2020, 08:32 AMVipper

For the 100 time FF has access to Tulips and talking about its 8 second reload without talking about its 200 damage (that become even more with vet) is misleading.


For the 100th time, tulips are not free to use and shouldn't be mentioned in general reliability of vehicle, because they are NOT reliable in both, accessibility(cost) and accuracy(moving targets).

Damage is irrelevant here, high accuracy is a requirement created by abysmal reload.
18 Mar 2020, 08:40 AM
#20
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8524 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Mar 2020, 08:34 AMKatitof


For the 100th time, tulips are not free to use and shouldn't be mentioned in general reliability of vehicle, because they are NOT reliable in both, accessibility(cost) and accuracy(moving targets).

Tulips exist, do damage and do light snare. End of story.

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Mar 2020, 08:34 AMKatitof

Damage is irrelevant here, high accuracy is a requirement created by abysmal reload.

Great lets increase the accuracy of the Ele and JT because they have abysmal reload.

Finally this thread has a specific suggestions try to focus on that and not me. You are of topic.
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