How come you never see JPIV then?
Players with a clue build it against TD spam to hardcounter it, as TDs can do nothing to JP4 as it got all the advantages over other 60 range vehicles in regular situations.
Another Take On The Heavy Tank Meta
17 Mar 2020, 08:41 AM
#41
Posts: 17883 | Subs: 8
Players with a clue build it against TD spam to hardcounter it, as TDs can do nothing to JP4 as it got all the advantages over other 60 range vehicles in regular situations.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
17 Mar 2020, 08:44 AM
#42
Posts: 369
Players with a clue build it against TD spam to hardcounter it, as TDs can do nothing to JP4 as it got all the advantages over other 60 range vehicles in regular situations.
Would 3 JPIV not lose to 3 SU-85 or 3 Jacksons? I can't argue about British TD, because I honestly believe it is in an abysmal state without the 17 pdr, which suffers all the drawbacks of an emplacement.
17 Mar 2020, 08:47 AM
#43
Posts: 17883 | Subs: 8
Would 3 JPIV not lose to 3 SU-85 or 3 Jacksons? I can't argue about British TD, because I honestly believe it is in an abysmal state without the 17 pdr, which suffers all the drawbacks of an emplacement.
I can't imagine a situation outside of 4v4 where you'd have that kind of composition, but yes, in equal numbers, JP4 got advantage, vet1 onward its a stomp.
SU-85 would have an edge until JP4s got vet1.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
17 Mar 2020, 08:51 AM
#44
Posts: 369
I can't imagine a situation outside of 4v4 where you'd have that kind of composition, but yes, in equal numbers, JP4 got advantage, vet1 onward its a stomp.
SU-85 would have an edge until JP4s got vet1.
I would have used 100 vs 100, because larger numbers make the comparison more obvious. I said nowhere, that this was a realistic composition. Please try and not leap to conclusions so vigourously.
17 Mar 2020, 17:07 PM
#45
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
It is since any units performance is tied on how easily it is countered. M36/SU-85 can counter Tiger extremely easy once vetted since they can damage (hit and penetrate) from 60 with probabilities above 95%.
I will say it again in ELI5 cause it seems you are missing the point i just wrote.
TD with lower penetration didn't made Heavy tanks viable at all in teamgames. When the Su85 didn't gain pen on vet and it had 200/180 pen max, Tigers weren't roaming around in 4v4.
Should vet performance on TDs have a look on? Yes. Is this the reason for the changes applied to heavies to make them viable/meta on teamgames? No.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
17 Mar 2020, 17:58 PM
#46
Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1
I will say it again in ELI5 cause it seems you are missing the point i just wrote.
TD with lower penetration didn't made Heavy tanks viable at all in teamgames. When the Su85 didn't gain pen on vet and it had 200/180 pen max, Tigers weren't roaming around in 4v4.
Simply because in large modes the CP 13 made them come too late to impact them game.
Should vet performance on TDs have a look on? Yes.
Nice to see that what I have been saying for the last four year has been acknowledged.
Is this the reason for the changes applied to heavies to make them viable/meta on teamgames? No.
Did I say it was? What I said is that instead buffing the Super heavies to make them more attractive one should nerf their counters.
17 Mar 2020, 18:27 PM
#47
Posts: 1515
Never had problems vs any heavy. Your advice is "make heavy tanks medium so they can get countered by medium tanks". The whole point of heavy tanks is "They cost a lot but also there are no direct counters to them". I never had any problems vs Tigers, usually one rifleman squad snares him (sometimes not) and 2 of my bazooka squads and one AT destroy him. I also pop smokes if the Tiger is covered by MGs or sth. The heavy tanks are their own thing, let them be. Panther as a medium tank being able to take on Pershing and KV1 and every other tank-weak heavy tank is enough. Heavies stand on their own regard. Counter with a heavy or anything that is good vs tanks + something else. IS-2 is really slow so if you manage to snare it, bye bye Stalin, it was not nice knowing you.
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
17 Mar 2020, 18:31 PM
#48
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
I never had any problems vs Tigers, usually one rifleman squad snares him (sometimes not) and 2 of my bazooka squads and one AT destroy him.
Huh. Interesting. Might I inquire as to which game mode and ladder level you are refering to?
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17 Mar 2020, 19:15 PM
#49
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Simply because in large modes the CP 13 made them come too late to impact them game.
Nice to see that what I have been saying for the last four year has been acknowledged.
Did I say it was? What I said is that instead buffing the Super heavies to make them more attractive one should nerf their counters.
And i'm saying that nerfing the counters doesn't necessarily translate to the goal of making them viable and meta on those modes at all. We have the current state of Heavies because of CP buffs + Performance buffs.
We had weaker TDs against heavies and that didn't made them more viable on those modes.
The issue is an inverse problem of the Super heavy TDs. Viable and meta on Teamgames, absolutely shit on 1v1. If you tried to push for them to be good on 1v1, they would destroy any resemblence of balance in other modes. Same ended happening with heavies in current meta.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
17 Mar 2020, 19:25 PM
#50
Posts: 1515
Huh. Interesting. Might I inquire as to which game mode and ladder level you are refering to?
Automatch vs Players and custom games (same rules as automatch) with friends (not real life, steam friends).
I will not disclose my ladder, only playtime (530h) as one can always get;
"I am lvl 20 elite I compete at tournaments, I know Gaben, I know what I'm talking about, my word is the law when it comes to balance..." BS thrown at them.
I will however say that the people I play with are lvl 10-15.
3v3 and 2v2 -> never played 1v1 automatch because the lag can be game breaking in Europe if you match with somebody outside of it (usually do).
However, I do not see the necessity or the importance of this information. Why you asking friend?
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
17 Mar 2020, 19:45 PM
#51
Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1
And i'm saying that nerfing the counters doesn't necessarily translate to the goal of making them viable and meta on those modes at all. We have the current state of Heavies because of CP buffs + Performance buffs.
We had weaker TDs against heavies and that didn't made them more viable on those modes.
Not it does not necessarily.
In large modes the problem was the CP restriction. In large modes the pace is faster while the CP gain is slower. Thus super heavies come to later and had less impact than smaller modes because their more on AT on the map.
Lowering CP would be enough to make them more attractive in 4vs4 while the tech requirement could delay them in 1vs1. The buffs where too much/unnecessary.
The issue is an inverse problem of the Super heavy TDs. Viable and meta on Teamgames, absolutely shit on 1v1. If you tried to push for them to be good on 1v1, they would destroy any resemblence of balance in other modes. Same ended happening with heavies in current meta.
Imo there is a main difference here since Super heavy TDs are more specialized. They also require allot of support. Main battle tanks have both AI and AT roles and thus are more flexible.
Imo one can make the gap between 1vs1 and 4vs4 smaller but lowering the HP of the Tiger is not the way to go since it will make Tiger even less attractive in 4vs4.
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