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Winter balance mod 2020 V1.3

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13 Mar 2020, 18:10 PM
#121
avatar of Leo251

Posts: 197

Panther is receiving an indirect NERF, because they will now have less accuracy against T34 and Shermans.

Yep, less than today, which is already horrible for a tank hunter.
13 Mar 2020, 18:23 PM
#122
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8229 | Subs: 1



Can't look it up at the moment, I assume the Panther has the same base accuracy (different curve obviously due to 50 range)


One thing that should mot be forgotten though is that accuracy is halved during movement, and at least Panther, Jackson and Firefly are supposed to shoot during the movement, too.

Also, the balance team aimed at making mediums a bit stronger, not only at making TDs less efficient.
For purely standing TDs I avree though, the difference would not be big

No actually Panther has one of the worse accuracy even in base stats (only lower than M36 at range 0 that is not important):

M36 0.05/0.045/0.035
Panther 0.6/0.045/0.035
Su-85 0.055/0.045/0.04
FF 0.066/0.055/0.044

Worth noting is that M36 has x1.5 better accuracy over the other vehicles (0.75 over 0.5, FF might have 0.55) and that FF has a MID range of 45!!! only 5 less than Panther max range.

Finally M36 can also use HVAP that have even more accuracy.
13 Mar 2020, 20:32 PM
#123
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15155 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2020, 18:10 PMLeo251
Panther is receiving an indirect NERF, because they will now have less accuracy against T34 and Shermans.

Yep, less than today, which is already horrible for a tank hunter.

Well then, I guess its good that you have a JP4 and StuG, which is intended counter for mediums.

I guess you won't be able to just spam panthers and expect them to work against literally everything, while other potent AT units just gather dust.
13 Mar 2020, 21:43 PM
#124
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7086 | Subs: 1

Quick question: even if you are immobile, Doesn't turret rotation count as movement ?
13 Mar 2020, 21:44 PM
#125
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15155 | Subs: 7

Quick question: even if you are immobile, Doesn't turret rotation count as movement ?

No.
Even if you move after pressing stop, it still doesn't count as movement.
You can use this "mechanic" to pull off standing accuracy shots on the move with a little bit of practice and you don't really need to be any pro as I'm able to pull it off whenever I want.
13 Mar 2020, 21:51 PM
#126
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7086 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2020, 21:44 PMKatitof

No.
Even if you move after pressing stop, it still doesn't count as movement.
You can use this "mechanic" to pull off standing accuracy shots on the move with a little bit of practice and you don't really need to be any pro as I'm able to pull it off whenever I want.


When you are chasing, you already have the target on sight.
Maybe i was confused with rotation.
13 Mar 2020, 21:56 PM
#127
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15155 | Subs: 7



When you are chasing, you already have the target on sight.
Maybe i was confused with rotation.

Rotation(of the hull) is indeed considered a movement.
14 Mar 2020, 13:05 PM
#128
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3937 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2020, 17:06 PMVipper

My post demonstrates how the lower target size does not bring the desired result.

And my point is that instead of (only) lowering the size of mediums that affect all weapons one should be lowing the accuracy of TDs...

I think an overhaul of targetsizes and accuracy is needed. It's too late now (though I did suggest it a long time ago) as the numbers are simply too close for fine tuning
14 Mar 2020, 13:13 PM
#129
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 970 | Subs: 1


I think an overhaul of targetsizes and accuracy is needed. It's too late now (though I did suggest it a long time ago) as the numbers are simply too close for fine tuning

Well, 1 target size corresponds to about 4-5% hit chance on the average.
I don't think that anything lower than this would really be noticeable. Especially since due to collision hits, the actual difference is not 4-5%, but more like 2-3%
14 Mar 2020, 22:15 PM
#130
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 82

Panther has got worse accuracy but also has heavy tank HP, heavy tank frontal armour, great gun, is really fast, has a top gunner. It's the best tank in the game, non doctrinal. Don't know why you're complaining. M36 has an open turret (hence the range), 90mm gun, hence the range/penetration.... even the armour should be tougher (historically) but that would make it too good. Right now, the only bad things about this patch are the Pershing nerf, and the cookie-cutter business. What I mean by that is the "...get more in line with..." business. Basically taking the unit and recoloring and rebranding it. 3 patches from now, Pershing will be the same as Tiger and IS-2 since everything needs to get "more in line with". Anyone who complains that one unit is overpowered/underpowered is seriously in the wrong there.
Also, I don't know why you complain about squad wipes from heavies? That's literally their role, you see a heavy, you spread out. Simple. Pershing should be excelling at that since it's got the same HP as Panther and lower armour than most heavies. Stop complaining please, since 90% of complains on this forum are completely unfounded.
14 Mar 2020, 23:30 PM
#131
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 918

So the Tiger got nerfed back to being just a shitty armored box with an average health pool? Nice patch.

How hard is it to understand good game design? If Heavy tanks aren't powerful they are NOT fun to use. If they are a no brainer to get then NERF THEIR SPEED AND ACCELERATION like they worked in coh1.

But now you make faster turret traverse speed :) Yeah that feels coherent with good heavy tank design :)
14 Mar 2020, 23:32 PM
#132
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15155 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Mar 2020, 23:30 PMspajn
So the Tiger got nerfed back to being just a shitty armored box with a average health pool? Nice patch.

Any particular reason you specify tiger, when all heavies got that nerf?

How hard is it to understand good game design? If Heavy tanks aren't powerful they are NOT fun to use. If they are a no brainer to get then NERF THEIR SPEED AND ACCELERATION like they worked in coh1. Jesus these devs....

If 2 mediums can't beat heavy with loss of 1, then heavy is too strong.
14 Mar 2020, 23:36 PM
#133
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 918

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Mar 2020, 23:32 PMKatitof

Any particular reason you specify tiger, when all heavies got that nerf?


If 2 mediums can't beat heavy with loss of 1, then heavy is too strong.


Because i don't play communist faction. 2 mediums should beat 1 heavy is just static shitty game design. Mediums should have the advantage of being faster and be able to be all over the map. Heavy tanks are too mobile. Problem also come from that its too easy to snare in coh2. It worked better in coh1 thats why mediums always were desired to have.
15 Mar 2020, 03:45 AM
#134
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 715

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2020, 18:23 PMVipper

No actually Panther has one of the worse accuracy even in base stats (only lower than M36 at range 0 that is not important):

M36 0.05/0.045/0.035
Panther 0.6/0.045/0.035
Su-85 0.055/0.045/0.04
FF 0.066/0.055/0.044

Worth noting is that M36 has x1.5 better accuracy over the other vehicles (0.75 over 0.5, FF might have 0.55) and that FF has a MID range of 45!!! only 5 less than Panther max range.

Finally M36 can also use HVAP that have even more accuracy.


So you want panther buffed to FF levels? May I remind you FF has the longest reload in the game at 8 seconds. Obviously it needs high accuracy otherwise the TD that has the slowest DPS in the game would be even worse.

The whole design of the unit is that of a 60range sniper, you can't compare it to the panther at all.
15 Mar 2020, 08:10 AM
#135
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8229 | Subs: 1



So you want panther buffed to FF levels?

Did I say that? Did even hint that? I have simply responded to a question by providing the relevant stats.


May I remind you FF has the longest reload in the game at 8 seconds. Obviously it needs high accuracy otherwise the TD that has the slowest DPS in the game would be even worse.

Taking about FF reload with taking about Tulips and higher damage per shot simply gives half the picture.
You are also assuming that FF is bad.


The whole design of the unit is that of a 60range sniper, you can't compare it to the panther at all.

I did not compared it with Panther. I have simply pointed out that the change in medium target size will not have desired effect when it comes to FF.
15 Mar 2020, 08:37 AM
#136
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 715

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Mar 2020, 08:10 AMVipper

Did I say that? Did even hint that? I have simply responded to a question by providing the relevant stats.


Taking about FF reload with taking about Tulips and higher damage per shot simply gives half the picture.
You are also assuming that FF is bad.


I did not compared it with Panther. I have simply pointed out that the change in medium target size will not have desired effect when it comes to FF.


Stats that are misleading in terms of a balance discussion, it's like posting shock troop and pathfinder stats together. Sure both are anti infantry units but high accuracy on pathfinders isn't relevant to the accuracy of shock troops.

Both tanks can't be compared as simply, different units different roles so judging only on accuracy is pointless. And yes FF is UP compared to other TDs, it's popcap is inflated. Just look at the Jagdpanzer pop for example.

Skilled players can make it work with the skillshot that is tulips, but unless you're Hans or Jove nobody is going to be pulling off full tulip hits on medium tanks so it is in a weaker state than all other TDs due to its sniper role.
15 Mar 2020, 09:03 AM
#137
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1138

Yea FF is terrible in 2v2. They are ok in 4v4.
FF vet is poor because everything about it is slow slow

And since last church hill pop nerf, ukf is easily worse in late games. Somehow relic is furthering to weaken the croc field time....is croc as good as tiger? Oh pulease..

I think itz blitz warspeed should be on vet0 and the tulips cool down faster by 25%
15 Mar 2020, 09:15 AM
#138
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8229 | Subs: 1



Stats that are misleading in terms of a balance discussion
, it's like posting shock troop and pathfinder stats together. Sure both are anti infantry units but high accuracy on pathfinders isn't relevant to the accuracy of shock troops.

Man pls stop making stupid claims. Stat are not misleading THEY ARE FACTS.

In addition stop insinuating that I am trying to mislead people by comparing the "wrong type" of unit.

I did not compare the Panther with FF, Hannibal did I simply provided the stat he was missing.


Both tanks can't be compared as simply, different units different roles so judging only on accuracy is pointless.

The role is the same, they are both "counter to super heavy tank". Their difference how they achieve that role.


And yes FF is UP compared to other TDs, it's popcap is inflated. Just look at the Jagdpanzer pop for example.

For the 100 time FF pop is not inflated and you are actually the one comparing units with a different role. FF is meant to counter super heavies and JP is meant to counter mediums. And actually JP's pop is inflated.


Skilled players can make it work with the skillshot that is tulips, but unless you're Hans or Jove nobody is going to be pulling off full tulip hits on medium tanks so it is in a weaker state than all other TDs due to its sniper role.

FF has sight 45, damage 200, Tulips, armor 160 a turret, access to "Warspeed", a coaxial mg, one of longest mid range at 45 and it simply fine.
15 Mar 2020, 11:11 AM
#139
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 892

Following this discussion (which is very misleading), I must weight in that I am also against the idea of people wanting to give more FF like stats to the Panther. It feels like some axis players are demanding a bit too much. A Panther with FF style aim, range, and damage whilst zooming around the field at full speed would be unstoppable.
15 Mar 2020, 11:22 AM
#140
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15155 | Subs: 7

Following this discussion (which is very misleading), I must weight in that I am also against the idea of people wanting to give more FF like stats to the Panther. It feels like some axis players are demanding a bit too much. A Panther with FF style aim, range, and damage whilst zooming around the field at full speed would be unstoppable.

Lets give it FF armor, mobility, AI damage of MGs and reload too and you'll instantly notice how everyone suddenly wants old panther now.
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