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Is the T70 OP?

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4 Mar 2020, 14:28 PM
#61
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 296 | Subs: 1

T70 is op yes. But because of the state of the soviets nerfing it too hard will kill them lol. Need to figure out a proper nerf that doesnt go too hard. Vet 3 needs to be toned down for sure atleast, dunno about mobility, kinda needed to be relevant in the lategame and espescially vs puma
4 Mar 2020, 14:28 PM
#62
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2634

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Mar 2020, 11:32 AMVipper

Well on the bright Su-76 might see some action so that people stop asking for buffs for it....


The resurgence of mobile defense means the Su76 is even more fucked than it was. Puma runs circles around it.
4 Mar 2020, 14:56 PM
#63
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2411 | Subs: 1



I said its acceleration should go down a little bit so its user should be more precise with his movements.

This does not mean the Pak40 has that much of an easier time countering it.


"That much" depends on how much you're nerfing its acceleration. That's a pretty important stat for reacting to an AT gun shot, and it would make chasing it with Puma easier as well


Plus having tellers not one shot the t70 is a colossal Ostheer nerf which is extremely unfair as a trade off for a bit of acceleration reduction on the T70.

Hence why I said this would have to result in a stock Puma since Ostheer would have no means of countering the T70 efficiently if it’s used properly. Notice the word efficiently. Making 3 Pgrens with shreks and camouflaging them in ambush is not efficient.


As I asked before, how would a teller leaving a t70 with 20hp and a dead engine be such a crippling blow to the faction? A 222 can sneeze on that to kill it

Having a vehicle only mine on your engineers is already strong, I don't see why it needs 1-shotting to be effective
4 Mar 2020, 15:07 PM
#64
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8280 | Subs: 1



The resurgence of mobile defense means the Su76 is even more fucked than it was. Puma runs circles around it.

Try using a snare or mine...
4 Mar 2020, 15:08 PM
#65
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3954 | Subs: 1



I said its acceleration should go down a little bit so its user should be more precise with his movements.

This does not mean the Pak40 has that much of an easier time countering it.

Plus having tellers not one shot the t70 is a colossal Ostheer nerf which is extremely unfair as a trade off for a bit of acceleration reduction on the T70.

Hence why I said this would have to result in a stock Puma since Ostheer would have no means of countering the T70 efficiently if it’s used properly. Notice the word efficiently. Making 3 Pgrens with shreks and camouflaging them in ambush is not efficient.

Actually acceleration would be a huge boost to all AT and is a more inportant stat than max speed in survival.it is literally increasing the amout of time it takes for the tank to leave an area it doesnt want to be in
4 Mar 2020, 15:10 PM
#66
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15210 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Mar 2020, 15:07 PMVipper

Try using a snare or mine...

Do exactly that.
Against T-70.

Problem solved, Sander, I am now ready to join balance team. :romeoPro:
4 Mar 2020, 15:41 PM
#67
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2634

As I asked before, how would a teller leaving a t70 with 20hp and a dead engine be such a crippling blow to the faction? A 222 can sneeze on that to kill it


So in your scenario I have to dive the damaged T70, since the mine won’t always be on the frontline, with a 222 and probably lose it in the process to a Zis 3 and snare combo protecting the damaged T70


jump backJump back to quoted post4 Mar 2020, 15:07 PMVipper

Try using a snare or mine...


Try using arguments.



Actually acceleration would be a huge boost to all AT and is a more inportant stat than max speed in survival.it is literally increasing the amout of time it takes for the tank to leave an area it doesnt want to be in


Indeed, and that is why I suggested it, since it will thus require more precision in how you micro the T70 and you won’t be able to zoom around Paks cones of fire like now. It’s either that or lethality nerfs and I’d rather see the T70 become a bit harder to use properly than become less rewarding to use.
4 Mar 2020, 15:45 PM
#68
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2411 | Subs: 1



So in your scenario I have to dive the damaged T70, since the mine won’t always be on the frontline, with a 222 and probably lose it in the process to a Zis 3 and snare combo protecting the damaged T70


You're trading 30 fuel to kill 70. And that's only if I happen to have AT gun and snare nearby already, because it'll take you less than a second to kill it... The problem is what exactly?

If 90 Muni for a squad wipe is OP. Then so is 50 mini for a 70 fuel investment
4 Mar 2020, 15:49 PM
#69
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2634



You're trading 30 fuel to kill 70. And that's only if I happen to have AT gun and snare nearby already, because it'll take you less than a second to kill it... The problem is what exactly?

If 90 Muni for a squad wipe is OP. Then so is 50 mini for a 70 fuel investment


That’s 50 muni you desperately need to upgrade your infantry that can easily be countered by a minesweeper. You also don’t have any other AT option besides a slow pak that keeps missing the T70 and needs 3 shots to kill it, and expensive shreks that have little range and accuracy and make a 340mp squad useless vs infantry.

It’s really not that hard to understand. If you take away 1 shot tellers then Ost needs a stock Puma.
4 Mar 2020, 15:55 PM
#70
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2411 | Subs: 1


That’s 50 muni you desperately need to upgrade your infantry that can easily be countered by a minesweeper. You also don’t have any other AT option besides a slow pak that keeps missing the T70 and needs 3 shots to kill it, and expensive shreks that have little range and accuracy and make a 340mp squad useless vs infantry.


You didn't respond what I just said though. Its still a relatively easy kill left with 20hp. I didn't say remove the teller

It’s really not that hard to understand. If you take away 1 shot tellers then Ost needs a stock Puma.


No one is struggling to understand anything, I just disagree with you.... Saying that a 20dmg nerf to tellers means they need a whole new unit is pretty over-the-top imo

Especially since you're already suggesting nerfing the t70 against all other types of AT

4 Mar 2020, 18:23 PM
#71
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2277



You didn't respond what I just said though. Its still a relatively easy kill left with 20hp. I didn't say remove the teller



No one is struggling to understand anything, I just disagree with you.... Saying that a 20dmg nerf to tellers means they need a whole new unit is pretty over-the-top imo

Especially since you're already suggesting nerfing the t70 against all other types of AT


You are not answering the questions i made to you dont demand others to do it.

I said: TELLER MINES ARE OFFTOPIC. This is about T70 itself.

If you cant follow the rules dont be a prick to others.

A 20HP T70 is survivable enough against anything OST can throw unless it is a PUMA
4 Mar 2020, 18:28 PM
#72
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2411 | Subs: 1


You are not answering the questions i made to you dont demand others to do it.

You are a liar. You literally didn't even ask a question in your last post:


Then open a thread for it, you are just derailing with offtopic.

If i came up and say: "Boy from now on apples and peaches are the same" does not make it truth.

T70 is way too mobile, a mine is not a direct counter. He has just to step on one and that is a probability,

Before that you asked:


Why? Those things have nothing to do with each other.

And I answered:


I specifically said if the t70 is getting nerfed they should change the 1 hit KO of the teller. Planting an early teller on a road is a common strategy for countering LVs like the t70. This thread is about the t70



I said: TELLER MINES ARE OFFTOPIC. This is about T70 itself.

If you cant follow the rules dont be a prick to others.

A 20HP T70 is survivable enough against anything OST can throw unless it is a PUMA

If you think I am not following the rules, report me to a mod

Teller is a commonly used tool against T70. And I brought up nerfing it specifically in the context of the t70 getting nerfed. It is absolutely not off-topic, you are wrong
4 Mar 2020, 19:01 PM
#73
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 570


You are not answering the questions i made to you dont demand others to do it.

I said: TELLER MINES ARE OFFTOPIC. This is about T70 itself.

If you cant follow the rules dont be a prick to others.

A 20HP T70 is survivable enough against anything OST can throw unless it is a PUMA


So a pack or shreck do less then 20 damage per shot?
4 Mar 2020, 19:20 PM
#74
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7101 | Subs: 1

Before removing myself from this thread i would try one more time?

Does this sound too bad?


I wouldn't touch it's current offensive performance but rather have more (soft) ways to counter the unit.

T70: i would reduce the armor on the unit (70/35) to 60/30. The goal is for the unit to receive slightly more damage from the light vehicles it already counters.

OH
221/2: re-introduce 221. The 221 would be the sniper/light car killer and having current 222 AI. Lower the cost, lower the HP.
The 222 upgrade (should be mp/fuel instead of the old munition) would cut down the AI performance but increase the HP to 400 and slightly increase armor values. Same gun as of now.

Without having to count with panic Puma, this gives OH a unit which they can rely with for not getting over run by light vehicles. The reduce on lethality on the T70 but increase on HP really screwed OH from having a soft counter in the 222.

OKW:
AA HT: because i always found how sad the AT performance against other light vehicle it is, i would give it a dmg modifier against vehicles (just like PTRS). The current dmg is 16 and i would give it a +4.
If you ask why? It would make it less risky to go Battlegroup and because it has always been stupid how even if you are setup ahead of time, the AA HT (USF) kills it straight ahead. Not sure if this would be enough though.
4 Mar 2020, 19:42 PM
#75
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2825 | Subs: 1

Before removing myself from this thread i would try one more time?

Does this sound too bad?



If we go that way for the 221/222 which I find excellent, there is no need to nerf T70 armor. Not sure if the OKW AATH should get that bonus, it is already shredding infantry and have smoke.
4 Mar 2020, 19:46 PM
#76
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2364 | Subs: 5

OH
221/2: re-introduce 221.


We actually looked into something similar but an Ostheer 221 would have a major readability issue with the OKW 221. And using the OKW 221 would be such a significant downgrade in durability that it'd likely be a net nerf.
4 Mar 2020, 19:58 PM
#77
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 893

Before removing myself from this thread i would try one more time?

Does this sound too bad?


Its a good concept, but I don't think it would fix the problem for OST.

T70: i would reduce the armor on the unit (70/35) to 60/30. The goal is for the unit to receive slightly more damage from the light vehicles it already counters.


This would only really change things for the Luchs, Flak-HT, Ostwind, and 222 (and the CommandP4, but that's way later). Everything else either has more than 70 pen at far, or so little pen that changing the T70s armor wouldn't have much of an affect.

For the units that the change would affect (listed before), it wouldn't be a massive change.
Chance to pen T70's front armor at far - Old vs. New:
Luchs: 29% to 33%
Flak-HT: 43% to 50%
Ostwind: 79% to 92%
222: 57% to 66%

We're mostly focusing on OST, so let's look at the 222.

Considering the T70 has a target size of 18, the 222 only has a 54% chance to hit (0.03 far acc) at max range, which drops to 27% when moving (0.5 moving acc mult). Going back to those pen values, that means the 222's "Chance to Damage" goes from 31%/15% to 36%/18% (stationary/moving) at far if the T70's armor was lowered. I don't think that would change very much.

OH
221/2: re-introduce 221. The 221 would be the sniper/light car killer and having current 222 AI. Lower the cost, lower the HP.
The 222 upgrade (should be mp/fuel instead of the old munition) would cut down the AI performance but increase the HP to 400 and slightly increase armor values. Same gun as of now.

Without having to count with panic Puma, this gives OH a unit which they can rely with for not getting over run by light vehicles. The reduce on lethality on the T70 but increase on HP really screwed OH from having a soft counter in the 222.


Considering this is specifically about the OST/Sov matchup, I don't think a lower HP "221" would be viable. Sov can bring out a lot of light AT fairly early on, in the form of PTRS'; and on top of that, the 221/222' 9/4.5 armor means its going to take damage from almost everything. I just don't see an even squishier LV being useful against Sov, specifically.

If the HP on the 221 was kept at its current value (320), then this could be an interesting choice when combined with a "222 upgrade" that pushes it more into an AT role. The increased armor values would need to be carefully considered, though, otherwise 444/666 could return and basically erase LV play from USF/UKF.

OKW:
AA HT: because i always found how sad the AT performance against other light vehicle it is, i would give it a dmg modifier against vehicles (just like PTRS). The current dmg is 16 and i would give it a +4.
If you ask why? It would make it less risky to go Battlegroup and because it has always been stupid how even if you are setup ahead of time, the AA HT (USF) kills it straight ahead. Not sure if this would be enough though.


This would be pretty interesting, and I agree that the current OKW/USF AA-HT matchup really doesn't make a lot of sense. Alternatively, when setup, the OKW Flak-HT could gain some sort of (small) armor bonus. This would likely have the same affect, as the increased armor would let it survive longer against the AA-HT and T70 allowing for more damage to be dealt, without causing balance issues/knock-on problems for other LVs (since TTK wouldn't change).

We actually looked into something similar but an Ostheer 221 would have a major readability issue with the OKW 221. And using the OKW 221 would be such a significant downgrade in durability that it'd likely be a net nerf.


Not to be dismissive of readability issues (especially considering my earlier posts in this thread), but there is a precedent for similar/identical looking units with different stats. The "M3" half-track from USF's mechanized company looks identical to UKF's "M3 Supply Halftrack" from the 'Special Weapons Regiment' doc, despite having different stats, and they both look very similar (though not identical) to Sov's non-doc "M5 HT Transport".

I'll admit that intentionally adding similar/identical looking units isn't the best practice, but the OST 221 and OKW 221 would have different faction symbols on them, as well as different team colors (if enabled). Additionally, the overlap would only be between the non-upgraded variants, since the upgrades convert the vehicles in 222s and 223s. The possible confusion may be worth the balance implications.

There are also 3 model 'variants' (from what I can tell) of the OKW 221, with small differences (notably, bags on the front), that could be made into the distinct OKW/OST variants.
4 Mar 2020, 20:21 PM
#78
avatar of Stark

Posts: 587 | Subs: 1


I haven't said anything about the state of the T-70.

The sight isn't that insane anymore since it was nerfed over a year ago though. It has 68.5 sight range in recon mode. A vetted 222 has 65 sight range in comparison. And 91 sight range with a spotting scope (70 without vet).


I wonder how is your personal and balance team opinion about T70. Do you guys think it's okey in current form?

The range sight is fine compare to vetted 222 or spotting scopes but unit is too flexible to turn off and on the fire mode. It's speed in crazy like F1 with vetterancy (which isn't hard to get, it's one of the fastest LV to vet) so it can escape before any thread.

btw. sorry if i sound harsh in last post.
4 Mar 2020, 20:48 PM
#79
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2634



We actually looked into something similar but an Ostheer 221 would have a major readability issue with the OKW 221. And using the OKW 221 would be such a significant downgrade in durability that it'd likely be a net nerf.


Then consider making the 222 cost 300mp 50 fuel but get more health, accuracy and penetration so its anti tank improves and its anti infantry stays the same.
4 Mar 2020, 20:49 PM
#80
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15210 | Subs: 7



Then consider making the 222 cost 300mp 50 fuel but get more health, damage and penetration so its anti tank improves.

Its a lightly armored scout car, not a light tank nor a light tank counter.
It'll never go up against actual light tanks.
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