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Is the T70 OP?

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Is the T70 OP?
Option Distribution Votes
61%
39%
Total votes: 122
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
3 Mar 2020, 00:56 AM
#1
avatar of SquishyMuffin

Posts: 11

Kind of baffled how it hasn't been nerfed since... I can't remember when. I honestly think it was last touched when it went from two pak hits to three. Feel free to officially post when a balance change happened to the T70.

So I'm generally curious on what the census is on this unit's balance. As it isn't talked about as an issue officially, yet everyone knows it's the strongest light vehicle that both OST and OKW's entire early game is built around. Is that... okay then?

I even searched these forums with threads on T70 and last one is from 2018 saying OST struggle against it..during Mobile Defence meta! So I guess it's actually fine then?

There is a handy poll below you can vote in, or let this thread wither away awkwardly.

3 Mar 2020, 00:58 AM
#2
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2599

I think its mobility needs to be reduced. Right now AT guns are helpless since they take forever to set up/aim/whatever while the T70 zooms around like an F1 car.
3 Mar 2020, 01:03 AM
#3
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2268

IMO T70 must have a good performance. But its a little too much. It rewards very well kiting and it accurately kills 1-2 models each hit. Rarely misses.
3 Mar 2020, 01:10 AM
#4
avatar of SquishyMuffin

Posts: 11

I think its mobility needs to be reduced. Right now AT guns are helpless since they take forever to set up/aim/whatever while the T70 zooms around like an F1 car.


Lol I like F1 though (go any team but Mercedes ffs). Admittedly not on a T70 but hey-ho. Wouldn't people say that'd make the Puma an even stronger unit against it?

IMO T70 must have a good performance. But its a little too much. It rewards very well kiting and it accurately kills 1-2 models each hit. Rarely misses.


I agree with both assessments so far because they are in-line with my pre-existing bias :thumb:
3 Mar 2020, 01:15 AM
#8
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2599

I would reduce its acceleration a bit but keep its top speed the same. That way its harder to manuever properly and abuse its speed, meaning you need to be more precise in how you use it, but is still fast enough to function normally.
3 Mar 2020, 01:51 AM
#10
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 709

Watch how luvnest mastered it in the recent finals

Vet three it kills a model with every shot, and it hits vet three FAST. The impact of having a lv that can wipe that quick basically shuts down all side capping until you have a puma or med tank. ATG or shreks just don't cut it where as zooks are usually enough to fight off a luch.

There's no doubt it carries the Soviet midgame but the unit at vet3 is crazy. You could nerf that without effecting Soviet balance too much at earlier timing.
3 Mar 2020, 02:30 AM
#11
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7081 | Subs: 1

Changelog:



I voted yes, but i think the unit itself is somehow fine. Let me explain this dichotomy.

The unit had been nerfed in order to be less prone to wipes when reducing the AoE but given a token MG buff and a way for the common folk to make the unit survive pak shots (good players would proc the auto repair for just a little seconds after getting hits cause even 1HP would make it survive) by increasing the HP to 400 (still 1 shot by teller).

For OKW and non 1v1 mode, i would argue the unit is perfectly fine.
Unit volume on teamgames.
OKW having 5 man main line infantry (less prone to get wiped before snaring) and both the Puma (heavy counter) and P2 (it won't realistically get killed from 100 to 0 in a timely fashion on a real game) in conjunction with other units can deal with the unit fine.
This leaves us with OH 1v1 and probably Medic HQ OKW.

Before addressing this 2 topics, i would start by saying that the T70 is as strong as it is now, because compared to all other shock light vehicles units, it's one of the latest to appear. If the T70 appeared a the same time as the P2/AEC/FHT/AAHT it would be hella broken. This kinda let it retain some of it's current power.


I wouldn't touch it's current offensive performance but rather have more (soft) ways to counter the unit.

T70: i would reduce the armor on the unit (70/35) to 60/30. The goal is for the unit to receive slightly more damage from the light vehicles it already counters.

OH
221/2: re-introduce 221. The 221 would be the sniper/light car killer and having current 222 AI. Lower the cost, lower the HP.
The 222 upgrade (should be mp/fuel instead of the old munition) would cut down the AI performance but increase the HP to 400 and slightly increase armor values. Same gun as of now.

Without having to count with panic Puma, this gives OH a unit which they can rely with for not getting over run by light vehicles. The reduce on lethality on the T70 but increase on HP really screwed OH from having a soft counter in the 222.

OKW:
AA HT: because i always found how sad the AT performance against other light vehicle it is, i would give it a dmg modifier against vehicles (just like PTRS). The current dmg is 16 and i would give it a +4.
If you ask why? It would make it less risky to go Battlegroup and because it has always been stupid how even if you are setup ahead of time, the AA HT (USF) kills it straight ahead. Not sure if this would be enough though.

3 Mar 2020, 15:22 PM
#12
avatar of SquishyMuffin

Posts: 11




Yep, your analysis and suggestions are on point imo. If there was a like or +1 I'd have done it instead of replying. But the length of your post required some response at least.
3 Mar 2020, 16:25 PM
#13
avatar of Leo251

Posts: 197

T70 is a inf wiping machine and very mobile. It needs 3 pak/tank shots to be killed.

Maybe:
- reducing the range from 40 to 35 can make the unit to be more exposed.
- or reduce its health to be killed in 2 pak/tank shot + 1 faust.

Also it can Cap Points and has excellet LoS. It needs to be toned down a bit.
3 Mar 2020, 16:26 PM
#14
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1431

I think it's lethality is fine, but as others suggested, maybe tweak it's mobility stats just a little. Overall, I don't think the T70 is a major problem.
3 Mar 2020, 17:54 PM
#15
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 884

Can I vote "sort of"?

The issue, imo, isn't that its over-performing; the problem is that OST has basically no 'good' counters, and OKW is forced into mech every game.

OST:
AT mine + follow-up AT (50 muni+)
Three Pak40 hits
PFaust + Schrecks (135 muni+)
Multiple 222s

These aren't necessarily even 'hard counters', but just enough to fend off the T70. Getting three Pak hits, for example, requires the Sov player to be pretty careless, and the infantry-only based solution is very sub-optimal (you're spending a ton of muni, AND giving up an AI squad).

OKW doesn't have such a bad time with it, as they can usually field a Puma around the same time as the T70, which essentially hard-counters it. A proper use of both a cloaked Rak and a fasut can also work well.

/edit

With that said, its vet 3 AI power is a bit much - if the Sov player gains even the slightest advantage, the T70 simply eats infantry (especially OST). Losing the "-20% scatter" bonus might fix that.
3 Mar 2020, 17:57 PM
#16
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2340 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Mar 2020, 16:25 PMLeo251
- or reduce its health to be killed in 2 pak/tank shot + 1 faust

That's already the case. Tanks and ATGs deal 160 damage (except the Puma, KT, Pak 43 and Ele/JT) so two hits (320dmg) and a Faust (100dmg) is enough to kill the T-70, which has 400 hitpoints.


OST:
AT mine + follow-up AT (50 muni+)

Tellers deal 400 damage so they oneshot a T-70.
3 Mar 2020, 18:07 PM
#17
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 884

Tellers deal 400 damage so they oneshot a T-70.


While this is true, I generally don't consider doc-locked units/abilities as counters when discussing standard units. UKF's mortar situation, for example, isn't fixed by lend-lease.


I had confused the Teller with the Riegel in this post.
3 Mar 2020, 18:14 PM
#18
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7081 | Subs: 1



While this is true, I generally don't consider doc-locked units/abilities as counters when discussing standard units. UKF's mortar situation, for example, isn't fixed by lend-lease.



Tellers is the normal mine. You are thinking on Riegel mines which if IIRC do less damage than Tellers.
3 Mar 2020, 18:20 PM
#19
avatar of Stark

Posts: 587 | Subs: 1


That's already the case. Tanks and ATGs deal 160 damage (except the Puma, KT, Pak 43 and Ele/JT) so two hits (320dmg) and a Faust (100dmg) is enough to kill the T-70, which has 400 hitpoints.


Tellers deal 400 damage so they oneshot a T-70.


And the recon mode with insane range of sight that can be instantly turn off into combat mode is okey? Plus the speed penalty is really poor
3 Mar 2020, 18:44 PM
#20
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2340 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Mar 2020, 18:20 PMStark
And the recon mode with insane range of sight that can be instantly turn off into combat mode is okey? Plus the speed penalty is really poor

I haven't said anything about the state of the T-70.

The sight isn't that insane anymore since it was nerfed over a year ago though. It has 68.5 sight range in recon mode. A vetted 222 has 65 sight range in comparison. And 91 sight range with a spotting scope (70 without vet).
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