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What is the REAL problem with Ost T4?

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5 Mar 2020, 15:35 PM
#81
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2825 | Subs: 1



Been able to field a single one more unit on a faction which has the worst blobbing capabilities of all 5, while having to play combined arms to be able to do so, is the least of my concerns to be honest. Specifically if that faction is tied to be the worst at the moment.

Right now OH has 2 problems: the eternal issue of dealing cost effectively with light vehicles during the early-mid game and the transition to dealing with vehicles with more than 800HP and +200 armor.



If the idea is to give them more to blob better, I'll continue to disagree with you. If the idea is to give them more to counter blobs, they already have the best late game map control / blob control tool in the name of bunker. They're also amazing to block flanking routes, are cheap and easy to repair. And they don't cost popcap. Here is already implemented your idea of saving popcap with a great use vs any kind of mainline infantry unit.

I'm sure someone will say that they can easily be destroyed/countered, and I proactively respond "like everything past 20 minutes in game".
5 Mar 2020, 15:52 PM
#82
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3217

Right now OH has 2 problems: the eternal issue of dealing cost effectively with light vehicles during the early-mid game and the transition to dealing with vehicles with more than 800HP and +200 armor.


A solution to the LV problem: https://www.coh2.org/topic/103763/ostheer-tech-restructure

The heavy vehicle problem is also a fairly straightforward fix: increase the penetration on the Panther so it kills unsupported heavies again.

5 Mar 2020, 17:48 PM
#84
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 281

T3 is perfect the way it is. I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise.
5 Mar 2020, 17:49 PM
#85
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7104 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Mar 2020, 15:35 PMEsxile


If the idea is to give them more to blob better, I'll continue to disagree with you. If the idea is to give them more to counter blobs, they already have the best late game map control / blob control tool in the name of bunker. They're also amazing to block flanking routes, are cheap and easy to repair. And they don't cost popcap. Here is already implemented your idea of saving popcap with a great use vs any kind of mainline infantry unit.

I'm sure someone will say that they can easily be destroyed/countered, and I proactively respond "like everything past 20 minutes in game".


The idea is to make them more cost effective in a different but similar way that Conscripts 7man made them viable in the late game.

At this point i think we are skimming around the issue that we might have completely different views on how the factions are right now. If i asked you how do think OH is right now you would probably tell me it's fine and that the only issue is the heavy meta.

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Mar 2020, 15:52 PMLago


A solution to the LV problem: https://www.coh2.org/topic/103763/ostheer-tech-restructure

The heavy vehicle problem is also a fairly straightforward fix: increase the penetration on the Panther so it kills unsupported heavies again.



Which i approve. Fast Stug would be a way.
6 Mar 2020, 06:43 AM
#87
avatar of blancat

Posts: 788

Ost T4 have no problem

It's more urgent to take care of the stupid UKF late game
6 Mar 2020, 09:53 AM
#90
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 116

Just increase the cost of T4 to justify needed buffs to make the vehicles perform better. Isn't this how balance works around here?? Or if you are really high IQ you can solve this equation of price and performance by lowering the costs of current T4 vehicles so that people start using them at wanted levels.

Simple economics guys.
6 Mar 2020, 10:08 AM
#91
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1146

Just increase the cost of T4 to justify needed buffs to make the vehicles perform better. Isn't this how balance works around here?? Or if you are really high IQ you can solve this equation of price and performance by lowering the costs of current T4 vehicles so that people start using them at wanted levels.

Simple economics guys.
I agree. If necessary, increase the cost of T4 and then buff the units. This means the units will not be redundant and overshadowed by T3 stuff.
6 Mar 2020, 10:13 AM
#92
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1140

I agree. If necessary, increase the cost of T4 and then buff the units. This means the units will not be redundant and overshadowed by T3 stuff.


No way. Panthers and werfers already cancerous in 4v4. I can't imagine them getting buffed. Cost is less issue in 4v4.

Balance need to consider 4v4 as most of us play this mode. Gtfo 1v1 2v2 elitists.

Go play coh1 if you want unbalanced axis powers. Or play usf should you said buff get approved. 3 buffed panther vs 3 jackson. No match at all. GG late game in team games
6 Mar 2020, 11:13 AM
#93
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3960 | Subs: 1

Tbh the panther should have been a unit restricted to 1 a piece and treated accordingly instead of nerfed and rebalanced and nerfed and rebalanced year after year to account for the potential to make them like they are t34s in team games. Elite tanks shouldnt be making up the entirety of your tank force anymore than elite infantry should be all tou field as infantry and i hooe thats a lesson learned for coh 3. The core of each army should be their standard units not thier elite ones
6 Mar 2020, 12:08 PM
#94
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 725

Tbh the panther should have been a unit restricted to 1 a piece and treated accordingly instead of nerfed and rebalanced and nerfed and rebalanced year after year to account for the potential to make them like they are t34s in team games. Elite tanks shouldnt be making up the entirety of your tank force anymore than elite infantry should be all tou field as infantry and i hooe thats a lesson learned for coh 3. The core of each army should be their standard units not thier elite ones


But OKWs entire faction design is to be an elite army like the one fielded at the battle of the bulge, that's why you get stg engineers, obers that represent the waffen SS and a king tiger non doc.
6 Mar 2020, 12:13 PM
#95
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15216 | Subs: 7



But OKWs entire faction design is to be an elite army like the one fielded at the battle of the bulge, that's why you get stg engineers, obers that represent the waffen SS and a king tiger non doc.


No limits then, just increase pop cap by 2 to discourage spam.
I mean, worked for churchills, no reason why it wouldn't work on panther.
6 Mar 2020, 12:30 PM
#96
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 725



No limits then, just increase pop cap by 2 to discourage spam.
I mean, worked for churchills, no reason why it wouldn't work on panther.


Churchill should be same pop as panther or comet.

It needed a small price increase and that was it, nobody builds the FF church combo anymore because both their pop is inflated.
6 Mar 2020, 13:01 PM
#97
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8287 | Subs: 1



Churchill should be same pop as panther or comet.

It needed a small price increase and that was it, nobody builds the FF church combo anymore because both their pop is inflated.

FF pop is not inflated. Here is the Pop of other "heavy TDs"

Panther 18
M-36 16
Su-85 15
FF 16

Actually SU-85 should have it pop increased to 16.
(And KV-1 to at 16).


Now can we move back to OStheer 4?
6 Mar 2020, 13:15 PM
#98
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1341 | Subs: 3

FF pop isn't inflated, but Churchill pop definitely is. I think it was increased from 16 to 18 initially, but afterwards to 20, almost directly following CaptainSprice losing to AshaBlois in some tourney. Sprice only had Schrecks and Stugs and slowly got suffocated by triple Churchills. IMO Price played that match wrong and the additional pop nerf was not justified.

I'll try to find the match once I can.
6 Mar 2020, 13:57 PM
#99
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8287 | Subs: 1

FF pop isn't inflated, but Churchill pop definitely is. I think it was increased from 16 to 18 initially, but afterwards to 20, almost directly following CaptainSprice losing to AshaBlois in some tourney. Sprice only had Schrecks and Stugs and slowly got suffocated by triple Churchills. IMO Price played that match wrong and the additional pop nerf was not justified.

I'll try to find the match once I can.

Pop of Churchill is 19.

Oddly enough the pop of KV-1 is 14...
6 Mar 2020, 14:42 PM
#100
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1341 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Mar 2020, 13:57 PMVipper

Pop of Churchill is 19.

Oddly enough the pop of KV-1 is 14...


From 16 to 18 to 19*

Here's the match that probably led to the extra nerf: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wRMQjx3DePo

IMO Churchill shouldn't cost more pop than a Panther, it has allot of health sure, but it also feeds veterancy to AT units and tanks like no other. 19 pop made it very hard to keep a competitive army composition to support it (note: you already need to have allot of pop for repair units to keep it on the field).
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