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Why maxim is trash

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24 Feb 2020, 23:26 PM
#101
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358



Well Relic + the modteam disagree because they've buffed it in 2 different patches this year


Were riflemen UP that got 2 buffs in the last patch? No? Then learn the fucking difference between needing a buff because UP and promoting new play styles.

In this case maxim NEEDS NO BUFF. SJ promoted a cool idea, i just agreed with it, start reading.
25 Feb 2020, 03:11 AM
#105
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 637



+1

The difference in price between buying 4 old maxims and 4 new maxims is just 80mp total (20 per). 80mp is not the main reason no one spams them anymore.

That would be their current performance + how much better penals and cons are than they were for most of the maxim spam days



How would this work? Like an upgrade on the unit itself? Or it replaces Maxim in the building?


The Maxim has gotten so many changes over the years due to the unit being difficult to balance. The key thing here would be timing. Start with a trash MG but the unit itself could be upgraded into a better MG (DHSK) when Axis (Mostly OKW) have a better chance of dealing with it. Make the upgrade require T1 and T2 (or T3)and the Maxim could be upgraded for say 60 Ammo into the DHSK. By the time both Buildings are up, OKW should have its Medic Truck out to deal with it. This would also give T2 openings something to spend ammo on instead of ZIS Barrage Spamming or spamming mines (since you have nothing else to spam ammo on)
25 Feb 2020, 03:16 AM
#106
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1738



The Maxim has gotten so many changes over the years due to the unit being difficult to balance. The key thing here would be timing. Start with a trash MG but the unit itself could be upgraded into a better MG (DHSK) when Axis (Mostly OKW) have a better chance of dealing with it. Make the upgrade require T1 and T2 (or T3)and the Maxim could be upgraded for say 60 Ammo into the DHSK. By the time both Buildings are up, OKW should have its Medic Truck out to deal with it. This would also give T2 openings something to spend ammo on instead of ZIS Barrage Spamming or spamming mines (since you have nothing else to spam ammo on)


Definitely. We need to give the unit some flexibility and it make sense in coh of getting progressively better.

If it can't be suppression platform, at least go with utilities
25 Feb 2020, 03:53 AM
#107
avatar of wongtp

Posts: 647



The Maxim has gotten so many changes over the years due to the unit being difficult to balance. The key thing here would be timing. Start with a trash MG but the unit itself could be upgraded into a better MG (DHSK) when Axis (Mostly OKW) have a better chance of dealing with it. Make the upgrade require T1 and T2 (or T3)and the Maxim could be upgraded for say 60 Ammo into the DHSK. By the time both Buildings are up, OKW should have its Medic Truck out to deal with it. This would also give T2 openings something to spend ammo on instead of ZIS Barrage Spamming or spamming mines (since you have nothing else to spam ammo on)


this is pretty decent. upgunning the maxim after a certain tier solves many problems.

i want an mg that is actually effective at suppressing late game infantry like 2x obers A moving over craters with yellow cover in the mid/late game.

not the maxim now who will get shot to bits by obers in the open
25 Feb 2020, 07:38 AM
#108
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 421 | Subs: 2

Honestly, despite how dumb the Maxim is, I'd be super happy with just a 10mp price reduction to bring it on par with MG34 pricing.

I'd prefer performance increase, but that doesn't seem to be happening with how much fearmongering there is about Maxim spam returning.
25 Feb 2020, 12:14 PM
#109
avatar of Princeps

Posts: 214



The Maxim has gotten so many changes over the years due to the unit being difficult to balance. The key thing here would be timing. Start with a trash MG but the unit itself could be upgraded into a better MG (DHSK) when Axis (Mostly OKW) have a better chance of dealing with it. Make the upgrade require T1 and T2 (or T3)and the Maxim could be upgraded for say 60 Ammo into the DHSK. By the time both Buildings are up, OKW should have its Medic Truck out to deal with it. This would also give T2 openings something to spend ammo on instead of ZIS Barrage Spamming or spamming mines (since you have nothing else to spam ammo on)


yeah i like it. and also for the morter ... 80mmm + 60Mun = 120mm Morter:)

or T70 +(-36Mun) = T34 :)
25 Feb 2020, 12:36 PM
#110
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 366

I would just return the reinforcement cost to 15mp and make it 240mp again. It literately functions as a cheap crap mg.
25 Feb 2020, 12:59 PM
#111
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1

No Maxim buffs.

Maxim spam should continue getting the UKF emplacement treatment. Make it super hard to pull off so people don't need to play against it as often. It sucks the Maxim has to remain shit but if it was any better people would just spam it again which ruins games.

25 Feb 2020, 13:11 PM
#112
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1

IMO if the balance team really wants to change the Maxim something like this could be considered.

Dhsk --> 50 cal clone with slightly worse suppression, offensive and mobile

Maxim --> Price to 280 MP, Build time extended, Pop Cap increased, MG34 suppression, arc and set up time but same DPS as current Maxim.

That way Maxim spam will be hard to pull off but getting 1 Maxim will still make sense in a combined arms playstyle as a defensive MG similar to what the MG34 does for OKW but Soviet theme 6 man crew.
25 Feb 2020, 13:36 PM
#113
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

IMO if the balance team really wants to change the Maxim something like this could be considered.

Dhsk --> 50 cal clone with slightly worse suppression, offensive and mobile

Maxim --> Price to 280 MP, Build time extended, Pop Cap increased, MG34 suppression, arc and set up time but same DPS as current Maxim.

That way Maxim spam will be hard to pull off but getting 1 Maxim will still make sense in a combined arms playstyle as a defensive MG similar to what the MG34 does for OKW but Soviet theme 6 man crew.


Sounds good, I am in.
25 Feb 2020, 13:56 PM
#114
avatar of wongtp

Posts: 647

IMO if the balance team really wants to change the Maxim something like this could be considered.

Dhsk --> 50 cal clone with slightly worse suppression, offensive and mobile

Maxim --> Price to 280 MP, Build time extended, Pop Cap increased, MG34 suppression, arc and set up time but same DPS as current Maxim.

That way Maxim spam will be hard to pull off but getting 1 Maxim will still make sense in a combined arms playstyle as a defensive MG similar to what the MG34 does for OKW but Soviet theme 6 man crew.


Sure. I would love an effective maxim.
25 Feb 2020, 16:33 PM
#115
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1260

No Maxim buffs.

Maxim spam should continue getting the UKF emplacement treatment. Make it super hard to pull off so people don't need to play against it as often. It sucks the Maxim has to remain shit but if it was any better people would just spam it again which ruins games.



The maxim needs to remain shit because it once got spammed and op is a very weak argument. Its not even one at all imo.

The maxim spam fear argument is bs. 2 of its op defyning feutures got nerfed hard, its mobility and its supression and some more nerf where added so it sucked so hard its a waste of mp at any stage of the game.

At the time cons and penals where a lot worse in preformance as well. This is the third reason people spammed it.
Cons and penals no sucking anymore will not encourage spam in the slightest esp in 1v1.
Now only drop its price to 240 and its still not so cheap that people will spam it. Esp not in 1v1. The maxim needs no buff to its stats. It needs a cost more inline with its preformance. Wich is the worst of the mg,s period.
25 Feb 2020, 16:37 PM
#116
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13161 | Subs: 1

Actually I would test increasing the fuel cost and time of T2 so that maxim is delayed and thus it can not be spammed...

That would actually make some room for Su-76 in T1 builds.

Soviet where originally designed to have 2 building and currently they can build all four and that creates issues with their units overlapping both doctrinal and stock.
25 Feb 2020, 18:26 PM
#117
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1

It sucks the Maxim has to remain shit but if it was any better people would just spam it again


Why? All the other MGs are better and cost the same or less except .50 cal? No one spams those

Maxim spam glory days were before penal and conscript buffs, that has way more to do with it than the Maxim itself. The Soviets had nothing else, nerfing the Maxim into the ground is what prompted those buffs

And no one is saying to bring old Maxim back. Idk how ANY buff to the current garbage is somehow going to bring back the old style. Current Maxim doesn't even remotely resemble the old one. Near-instant setup was a crucial feature of the Maxim spam, current Maxim sets up in same time as Vickers + MG34/42 (and that should stay that way)

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Feb 2020, 16:37 PMVipper
Actually I would test increasing the fuel cost and time of T2 so that maxim is delayed and thus it can not be spammed...


Yeah I'd be good with that. They only just recently reduced it's fuel cost anyway right?
25 Feb 2020, 18:48 PM
#118
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13161 | Subs: 1


...
Yeah I'd be good with that. They only just recently reduced it's fuel cost anyway right?

For some strange and bizarre reason yea:

Support Weapon Kampaneya
The cost of the structure has been reduced to improve its pick rate over the Special Rifle Command as a starting building, and make back-teching for team weapons slightly cheaper.
Fuel cost from 20 to 15

25 Feb 2020, 18:52 PM
#119
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Feb 2020, 18:48 PMVipper

For some strange and bizarre reason yea:

Support Weapon Kampaneya
The cost of the structure has been reduced to improve its pick rate over the Special Rifle Command as a starting building, and make back-teching for team weapons slightly cheaper.
Fuel cost from 20 to 15


Yeah that confused me. They originally dropped it by 10 but decided that was too much. Might as well just kept it the same

If they buff Maxim they could definitely go above 20 if needed
25 Feb 2020, 19:13 PM
#120
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13161 | Subs: 1



Yeah that confused me. They originally dropped it by 10 but decided that was too much. Might as well just kept it the same

If they buff Maxim they could definitely go above 20 if needed

The whole processes is confusing:



In other words we are buffing Penal because they are AI only then we decide to keep their AI but also give them AT and AT snares (and we also decide that normal satchel should also cause Engine damage) and now we decided that one Penal sound remain buffed but now they should also be able to back tech to T2...

So that there is even less reason to use M-42, Guards, 120mm mortars, Dhsk, Su-76, so that in end, naturally these units will buffed because no one is using them....


(note also that satchel become a sticky snare then the sticky part was removed but the engine damage part stayed and that AT satchel got more AOE and more friendly damage and thus now if one has his vehicle stick with a satchel charge he should drive his vehicle on Penal battalions for revenge)
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