Login

russian armor

Why maxim is trash

PAGES (10)down
22 Feb 2020, 15:54 PM
#21
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2080


And the vickers is not?????


Holy shite I fully agree with Zero for once!
22 Feb 2020, 16:36 PM
#22
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2176 | Subs: 1



6 models vs 4 models - and also anything to prevent the return of maxim spam.


Since you already mentioned the deathloop, the 6 men is basically lip service. It doesn't really add much survivability at all, it keeps it from being unusable

And you didn't really answer my point. None of that explains why it's the same price as the mg42. Whatever advantages Maxim may have, it is certainly not enough to justify costing the same as the best MG in the game that has no unlock cost

The fear of Maxim spam is a shit reason for it's current price. You spammed the old Maxim cause it's Arc was so narrow. It was super dominant within that Arc but it was easy to get flanked, unless you built 3-4 in which cause you just trolled around the map
22 Feb 2020, 18:23 PM
#23
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1072

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Feb 2020, 12:16 PMEsxile
Just happened this morning.



yes it is trash.

buff its suppression or give it reduced damage so that the above wont kill 5 man in a shot.

22 Feb 2020, 18:40 PM
#24
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2176 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Feb 2020, 12:16 PMEsxile
Just happened this morning.



Lol "Working as intended"

22 Feb 2020, 19:02 PM
#25
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 166



Lol "Working as intended"




Maxim Accuracy

Far = 0.4
Mid = 0.6
Near= 0.8

Maxim Rate of Fire = 8
Maxim Damage = 3


Maxim Damage should go down to 2, in exchange Far Accuracy should go up to 0.6 and Mid Accuracy to 0.7. Weapon Penetration should be adjusted so that DPS vs things like Scout Cars/Kubels remains about the same. This would make the Maxim more consistent in performance without having to touch the suppression values and would prevent incidents like the above video from being so common. The reason why the MG 42 is so good is because it has a Rate of Fire of 16, so literally double the amount of bullets are being shot which will surpress in the first burst usually.

22 Feb 2020, 20:40 PM
#26
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 733




Maxim Accuracy

Far = 0.4
Mid = 0.6
Near= 0.8

Maxim Rate of Fire = 8
Maxim Damage = 3


Maxim Damage should go down to 2, in exchange Far Accuracy should go up to 0.6 and Mid Accuracy to 0.7. Weapon Penetration should be adjusted so that DPS vs things like Scout Cars/Kubels remains about the same. This would make the Maxim more consistent in performance without having to touch the suppression values and would prevent incidents like the above video from being so common. The reason why the MG 42 is so good is because it has a Rate of Fire of 16, so literally double the amount of bullets are being shot which will surpress in the first burst usually.



Suppression and accuracy have almost no meaningful correlation despite some claims otherwise. Tests have been made both for against this theory and I think generally speaking the case is much more conclusive that there is no correlation. I think mainly the Maxim's ROF and to a degree burst time should remain exactly the same at all ranges and it's DPS should be balanced around accuracy. This way suppression remains more or less constant as well. The Maxim actually attains decently high rof and therefore suppression at point blank range.
23 Feb 2020, 02:39 AM
#27
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6820 | Subs: 1



Suppression and accuracy have almost no meaningful correlation despite some claims otherwise. Tests have been made both for against this theory and I think generally speaking the case is much more conclusive that there is no correlation. I think mainly the Maxim's ROF and to a degree burst time should remain exactly the same at all ranges and it's DPS should be balanced around accuracy. This way suppression remains more or less constant as well. The Maxim actually attains decently high rof and therefore suppression at point blank range.


On the open or yellow cover, when using a single source of suppression against a SINGLE squad, it is meaningless. With other units which can provide suppression it might break the suppression threshold but it is not something you can really play around.

Reducing damage also means a nerf against light vehicles.

Increasing accuracy wouldn't do jack shit in the video example.
23 Feb 2020, 06:46 AM
#29
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 508

The fact that is has a deathloop, reducing its survivability noticably. Smaller arc lower supression wich imo adds to the deathloop and needs vet ability to suppres as other mg,s do. It mobility is margenaly better then other mg,s. It needs teching...

So why in hell is it 260 mp, the same as the t0 much better overall mg 42?
Its out of an unrealitic fear maxim spam will return. Yes in 4v4 it still is spammed but so is nearly every unit that can will be in those games.

With token nerfs such as 10 mp for volks and 10 fuel for the jackson. A 10 to 20 mp cost decrease for the maxim would not impact it that much but would just give a clear sign its a less effective mg overall.
23 Feb 2020, 06:51 AM
#30
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1072

The fact that is has a deathloop, reducing its survivability noticably. Smaller arc lower supression wich imo adds to the deathloop and needs vet ability to suppres as other mg,s do. It mobility is margenaly better then other mg,s. It needs teching...

So why in hell is it 260 mp, the same as the t0 much better overall mg 42?
Its out of an unrealitic fear maxim spam will return. Yes in 4v4 it still is spammed but so is nearly every unit that can will be in those games.

With token nerfs such as 10 mp for volks and 10 fuel for the jackson. A 10 to 20 mp cost decrease for the maxim would not impact it that much but would just give a clear sign its a less effective mg overall.


Yep. Maxim also needs a tech structure. It is too expensive for a fragile unit. By time it is out Ost will get 222 or FHT to force maxim off. Too bad the deathloop means heavy reinforcement costs or a wipe to Ost light vehicles.

The only whinners are those using improper maxim counter, which is mortar attack ground. You dont use attack, you use smoke if you want a mortar counter!

A well placed rifle nades will drop 3 maxim models and you finish it off with another gren flank while it is death looping retreat.

240 mp maxim is fairer.
This is to match grens coming from T1.
Add 20% reduced damage at vet 1 if suppression is not buffed.
Look at the video, maxim sucks in a bad spot. Walk in, nade, wiped. Who the hell thinks maxim is fine is simply unfair.
23 Feb 2020, 08:24 AM
#31
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2464 | Subs: 1


but ost has to build t1 to get grens, what about the field presence hampering in that case.


I find it much less impactfull for Ost since they have more starting MP resources, T1 is cheaper and builds faster, and the MG42/pio-vision combo is significantly better than a anything a maxim opening can provide.
23 Feb 2020, 08:52 AM
#32
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 508

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Feb 2020, 06:51 AMmrgame2


Yep. Maxim also needs a tech structure. It is too expensive for a fragile unit. By time it is out Ost will get 222 or FHT to force maxim off. Too bad the deathloop means heavy reinforcement costs or a wipe to Ost light vehicles.

The only whinners are those using improper maxim counter, which is mortar attack ground. You dont use attack, you use smoke if you want a mortar counter!

A well placed rifle nades will drop 3 maxim models and you finish it off with another gren flank while it is death looping retreat.

240 mp maxim is fairer.
This is to match grens coming from T1.
Add 20% reduced damage at vet 1 if suppression is not buffed.
Look at the video, maxim sucks in a bad spot. Walk in, nade, wiped. Who the hell thinks maxim is fine is simply unfair.


I only put it in green cover or in the open and avoid yellow cover. In yellow cover they tend to bunch up. A riflenade or bundle nade will outright wipe it then.
23 Feb 2020, 12:19 PM
#33
avatar of dreamerdude
Benefactor 392

Posts: 370



Horrible positioning, you had a huge blind spot, you were clumped in yellow cover, and you didn't retreat when they were in critical range
23 Feb 2020, 12:36 PM
#34
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 806

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Feb 2020, 12:16 PMEsxile
Just happened this morning.



As any experienced Axis player could tell you, you made several crucial mistakes:

- Maxim did not fire at max range
- You left the Maxim unsupported. Everyone knows that the Maxim reached its full potential only when there are at least 5 Cons around it
- There were no mines around to damage and more importantly suppress the Panzergrenadiers
- You used the Maxim against a unit that had light cover for a split second
- You used the Maxim against infantry
- You used the Maxim

Seriously mate, "Git gud", "L2P" and "dOn't bLamE tHe gAmE".
And, as Katitof always says in these situations: "The problem sits in front of the screen".

Also you could have merged into the Maxim afterwards. All your fault.



So, but now serioiusly:
Maxim is okay against open fields, but if there is any cover it becomes super janky. If units have light cover like in this video, you can basically already pack your MG and try to fall back. Against heavy cover, good lord. Unless your Maxim targets the one guy that might not be in cover at the time, then it's okay. This makes the Maxim sometimes very unreliable to use and is the source of a lot of frustration about this unit.

I think the Maxim should either get a more standardized design or maybe give it damage modifier against units in cover? If the problem is spammability, it could also do with higher suppression, with short setup but long tear down time. Would keep the role as an offensive MG, but flanking is way easier.
Currently the Maxim is not complete trash, but it has a very bad design. Especially in the late game when there is more cover available, it becomes very unreliable.
23 Feb 2020, 12:39 PM
#35
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 806



Horrible positioning, you had a huge blind spot, you were clumped in yellow cover, and you didn't retreat when they were in critical range


Are you serious?
The Maxim was FRONTALLY charged by infantry (what it is supposed to hard counter) and fired from spotting range, still you think the Panzergrenadiere should win?
23 Feb 2020, 12:47 PM
#36
avatar of dreamerdude
Benefactor 392

Posts: 370



Are you serious?
The Maxim was FRONTALLY charged by infantry (what it is supposed to hard counter) and fired from spotting range, still you think the Panzergrenadiere should win?


some moderator you are. is this all you do to the people in these forums is troll? or attack them? no wonder why this site is such a shit show is because people like you run it.

I gave my honest run down that seemed to have happened on what went wrong and you just come out with something as non constructive as this.
23 Feb 2020, 13:20 PM
#37
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 806



some moderator you are. is this all you do to the people in these forums is troll? or attack them? no wonder why this site is such a shit show is because people like you run it.

I gave my honest run down that seemed to have happened on what went wrong and you just come out with something as non constructive as this.


Not sure what you're on about. If you mean the post responding to Esxile the irony is quite obvious.

If you mean the response to your post there is no attack whatsoever. You should tell apart critique from attack. You listed four points that you think Esxile did wrong, the first two of which I questioned because they do not make sense in my opinion.
But if you want we can take this to PMs and not clutter the forum with this.

I stand by my opinion:
Esxile repositioned his MG accordingly as soon as he saw that there was a flank coming, the Maxim was already set up before the PGrens showed up. Then - as I stated - the Maxim was frontally charged, there was no blind spot. It should be out of question that the MG should not be forced to retreat in such a scenario because the attacking unit had yellow cover for (I stopped it) about 1,5 seconds. That's what MGs should be there for: stopping units by suppression before they can close in. And the Maxim has huge problems with that if the attacked unit has some light cover which becomes more and more problematic the longer the games takes due to arty.
23 Feb 2020, 13:27 PM
#38
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2080



Are you serious?
The Maxim was FRONTALLY charged by infantry (what it is supposed to hard counter) and fired from spotting range, still you think the Panzergrenadiere should win?


Not defending the maxim, I think it’s a PoS, but seriously after they got suppressed and were obviously crawling for a grenade, he should have repositioned the maxim further away to not allow a grenade throw.
23 Feb 2020, 13:59 PM
#39
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 806



Not defending the maxim, I think it’s a PoS, but seriously after they got suppressed and were obviously crawling for a grenade, he should have repositioned the maxim further away to not allow a grenade throw.

Yes, he should have. Which is exactly why the Maxim is so frustrating if there is light cover, the PGrens should not have been able to throw in the first place. I assume we agree on that.

But to be honest if you reposition your MG you can assume that it should win. I stopped the time: From being suppressed starting the throwing animation was not even 2 seconds. And the time to the grenade exploding were an additional 4,5 seconds. So he had about 3 seconds from supression to ordering the repositioning, otherwise quite a few members will eat the grenade. That's enough time to do it, but when you reposition your MG you usually assume that the enemy squad should be suppressed and stuff like this does not happen. Look away to some other fight for 2 seconds and there is no way to dodge it anymore.

The whole issue in this video arises from the fact that the first model of PGrens was in yellow cover for the first burst of the Maxim. Thereby the squad did also not get suppressed by the short second burst and the PGrens were almost in throwing range by the third burst which finally suppressed. This is just bullshit.
23 Feb 2020, 14:46 PM
#40
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2080


Yes, he should have. Which is exactly why the Maxim is so frustrating if there is light cover, the PGrens should not have been able to throw in the first place. I assume we agree on that.

But to be honest if you reposition your MG you can assume that it should win. I stopped the time: From being suppressed starting the throwing animation was not even 2 seconds. And the time to the grenade exploding were an additional 4,5 seconds. So he had about 3 seconds from supression to ordering the repositioning, otherwise quite a few members will eat the grenade. That's enough time to do it, but when you reposition your MG you usually assume that the enemy squad should be suppressed and stuff like this does not happen. Look away to some other fight for 2 seconds and there is no way to dodge it anymore.

The whole issue in this video arises from the fact that the first model of PGrens was in yellow cover for the first burst of the Maxim. Thereby the squad did also not get suppressed by the short second burst and the PGrens were almost in throwing range by the third burst which finally suppressed. This is just bullshit.


This is why I only play Dshka doctrines man. Dshka just nukes approaching squads and counters Ostheer T2 LVs. Dshka the only real MG soviets have.
PAGES (10)down
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • Soviets flag T.R. TheSeekingGuy
  • Soviets flag T.R. Opportunity Cost
  • Oberkommando West flag VonAsten
  • Oberkommando West flag Jove
uploaded by Seeking

Board Info

78 users are online: 6 members and 72 guests
ShadowLinkX37, Lady Xenarra, kolertysaderma6, KoRneY, Stormjäger, 3evanc7691rr3
142 posts in the last 24h
1057 posts in the last week
4724 posts in the last month
Registered members: 19602
Welcome our newest member, kolertysaderma6
Most online: 1221 users on 25 Feb 2020, 12:03 PM