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Mainline infantry sandbags change

16 Feb 2020, 00:31 AM
#1
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2040

Since mainline infantries like Volks,cons, IS, riflemen (doctrinally) and grens (bunkers) are able to build their own cover the mechanic is kind of important to simply remove it.

Therefore instead of removing the ability i would like to prupose a change, into a more defensive theme.

Except for cons and grens, Instead of "building" sandbags (like engineers do) they now "spawn" a single, circular sandbag pile big enough to cover at least 3 or 4 models, like the ones in the capture points. This skill will have a big enough cooldown and will have a time to set up aswell.

Thoughs?
16 Feb 2020, 00:34 AM
#2
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3186

One interesting way to balance buildable cover is to disallow building bags on capture points.

Then any cover position you build can potentially be taken over unless you wire it.
16 Feb 2020, 00:35 AM
#3
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7640 | Subs: 1

How about removing sand bag from infatry (or greatly reduce speed) and leave that to engineer type units instead. Now one has a reason to use more units types.
16 Feb 2020, 00:37 AM
#4
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2040

Im actually all in for removing green cover build on mainlines, but as i said i dont think its the way devs want to take.

A single round sandbag pile can be used in any direction and probably hard to deny to the enemy. I like the idea to implement the capture point sandbag build aswell. But is it possible?
16 Feb 2020, 02:22 AM
#5
avatar of konfucius

Posts: 122

Better yet, turn capture point flags into no collision objects, that ways all sandbags can be used both other side and stops weird stuff happening with vehicles
16 Feb 2020, 02:28 AM
#6
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 487

Agree for Lago's idea
And maybe can give Grenadier free trench ?
16 Feb 2020, 02:39 AM
#7
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2037

Volks need sandbags because they’re much worse than Riflemen and need to sit in green cover to fight. If you remove sandbags from them it’s a MASSIVE okw nerf which is extremely unfair.

And please don’t say Sturmpioneers, they’re extremely overworked at the moment with minesweeping. If you want Volks sandbags removed then put Sturmpioneers at 250mp.
16 Feb 2020, 02:47 AM
#8
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2129 | Subs: 1

Is making sandbags cost small amounts of manpower or muni out of the question? For all factions? Not sure how much it would do but would make people use them more conservatively I feel

Maybe put them on engies for free? Cost MP on mainlines
16 Feb 2020, 06:15 AM
#9
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 724

Since mainline infantries like Volks,cons, IS, riflemen (doctrinally) and grens (bunkers)

Should bunkers be mentioned in the same breath as sandbags. they are not free. + defensive doc allows grens to build sandbags.
16 Feb 2020, 11:05 AM
#10
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1233 | Subs: 2


Should bunkers be mentioned in the same breath as sandbags. they are not free. + defensive doc allows grens to build sandbags.


But if you're going defensive doc, why not make Osttruppen? :wub:

And Osttruppen are worthless without their sandbags and trenches.
16 Feb 2020, 11:46 AM
#11
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 724



But if you're going defensive doc, why not make Osttruppen? :wub:

And Osttruppen are worthless without their sandbags and trenches.

That wasn't my point.
16 Feb 2020, 12:01 PM
#12
avatar of Euan

Posts: 107

...they now "spawn" a single, circular sandbag pile big enough to cover at least 3 or 4 models?...


I see where you're coming from and what you want to solve, but I don't think the idea would work at all. Such an object would have to be big and awkward, and just get in the way everywhere.

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Feb 2020, 00:34 AMLago
One interesting way to balance buildable cover is to disallow building bags on capture points.


Better yet, turn capture point flags into no collision objects, that ways all sandbags can be used both other side and stops weird stuff happening with vehicles


Both are good ideas but the whole "disallow stuff in X area" thing is another thing that has to be communicated in the UI, and makes the game feel a bit fake, to me. Maybe just easier to make no-collision and get rid of the awkward, annoying clicking around flag objects, trying to set up a sandbag that doesn't provide cover to the enemy (but is impossible to judge and the positioning system might let them crowd in in on the corner anyway...).

Volks need sandbags because they’re much worse than Riflemen and need to sit in green cover to fight. If you remove sandbags from them it’s a MASSIVE okw nerf which is extremely unfair


Yes, exactly. Same with Tommies. But unlike Tommies, Volks can not only build cover on every point, they can also negate any cover with flame nade, they don't needcover to function properly, and with StGs they can discourage closing. So at the moment, Volks are the worst offenders for "sandbags on every point", IMHO.
16 Feb 2020, 12:11 PM
#13
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2037

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Feb 2020, 12:01 PMEuan
Yes, exactly. Same with Tommies. But unlike Tommies, Volks can not only build cover on every point, they can also negate any cover with flame nade, they don't needcover to function properly, and with StGs they can discourage closing. So at the moment, Volks are the worst offenders for "sandbags on every point", IMHO.


Yeah Volks flame nade is abhorrent. Give Spios a non-doc flamethrower and take the nade away. Then give Volks the same nade as Panzerfusiliers.
16 Feb 2020, 12:17 PM
#14
avatar of dreamerdude
Benefactor 392

Posts: 370

Better yet, turn capture point flags into no collision objects, that ways all sandbags can be used both other side and stops weird stuff happening with vehicles


this' would be the best thing
16 Feb 2020, 15:42 PM
#15
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2040



Yeah Volks flame nade is abhorrent. Give Spios a non-doc flamethrower and take the nade away. Then give Volks the same nade as Panzerfusiliers.

This is a great idea. But Fthrower shouldnt disable Sweepers IMO
16 Feb 2020, 15:43 PM
#16
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2037


This is a great idea. But Fthrower shouldnt disable Sweepers IMO


This would also have to move Spios down to 280/270mp. You can’t have a single 300mp squad do it all.
18 Feb 2020, 19:25 PM
#17
avatar of Euan

Posts: 107

Yeah Volks flame nade is abhorrent. Give Spios a non-doc flamethrower and take the nade away. Then give Volks the same nade as Panzerfusiliers.


Yeah agree, that's a very reasonable suggestion.

I've always said that Sandbags + Flame Nade + StG + Salvage + Faust, on a primary infantry squad, just takes the fun and strategy out of playing OKW.

I don't want a nerf but it needs a rebalance. Move the flame nade to a SPio flamer, or give LeIG flame rounds, or turn the StG into a more powerful but more short-range SMG upgrade... any one of those things will force a bit more unit diversity or strategical thinking.

Then I might start playing OKW again :D
18 Feb 2020, 20:30 PM
#18
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 794

Since mainline infantries like Volks,cons, IS, riflemen (doctrinally) and grens (bunkers) are able to build their own cover the mechanic is kind of important to simply remove it.

Therefore instead of removing the ability i would like to prupose a change, into a more defensive theme.

Except for cons and grens, Instead of "building" sandbags (like engineers do) they now "spawn" a single, circular sandbag pile big enough to cover at least 3 or 4 models, like the ones in the capture points. This skill will have a big enough cooldown and will have a time to set up aswell.

Thoughs?


I wouldn't put bunkers in the same category as sandbags. One is free and can be put basically anywhere, the other is 150mp, can't be put in small places (and/or in certain directions) and can be easily targeted directly.

That said, I agree with the premise. Mainlines building cover never made sense to me, and should really be an "engineer" task (Engie/Pio/etc.).

The "low quality" cover mechanic on mainlines could be interesting, but I'd rather see it be a "make yellow cover" ability, rather than green. Perhaps a dirt pile or something?

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Feb 2020, 00:34 AMLago
One interesting way to balance buildable cover is to disallow building bags on capture points.

Then any cover position you build can potentially be taken over unless you wire it.


This really needs to happen. I've never understood why you can build cover inside a capture point. Combined with the point itself having collision, this just causes a ton of gimmicky issues.

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Feb 2020, 00:35 AMVipper
How about removing sand bag from infatry (or greatly reduce speed) and leave that to engineer type units instead. Now one has a reason to use more units types.


I agree with this, but the only problem is UKF. Their engineer-type unit is locked behind tech, so they wouldn't get SBs early on. If SBs are left on Infantry Sections, then the problem hasn't really been addressed.

Maybe move UKF engineers to T0, but keep all the tech-locked stuff (emplacements, etc.) behind T1/T2? Their "heavy engineer" upgrade could also be locked behind T1, and since a repair source is now available in T0, the UC's self-repair ability could be removed.

Also, unlike others have suggested, I really see no problem giving SBs to SturmPios. Being able to build wire but not sandbags is incredibly frustrating, and it also essentially locks out sandbags when going for a PF build rather than Volks.

Better yet, turn capture point flags into no collision objects, that ways all sandbags can be used both other side and stops weird stuff happening with vehicles


I believe this was brought up ages ago, but it didn't work for some reason or another (or was veto'd?).
18 Feb 2020, 20:53 PM
#19
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2040

^Agreed, Green cover for mainlines is just too good. A yellow cover is more than enough. A pile of dirt is not realistic but a shallow trench can be implemented. Tanks and troops will simply step over it and crush it, like sbags
18 Feb 2020, 23:55 PM
#20
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7640 | Subs: 1


....
I agree with this, but the only problem is UKF. Their engineer-type unit is locked behind tech, so they wouldn't get SBs early on.

And there is little reason for IS to be able to built heavy cover in first place.

Part of the reason why IS are hard to balance is that every engagement vs IS was in a crucial area of the map vs heavy after which IS could simply heal up again. Without sandbags available to them they would have to use the cover available in the map as other mainline infatry.
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