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Ostheer Tech Restructure

6 Feb 2020, 20:01 PM
#1
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3251

After all the changes to Ostheer's tech structure, Battle Phase 3 is pretty much pointless. All that separates it from T4 now is 100 MP, so they might as well be the same tech.

So why not do that? If you bundle BP3 and T4 together, you free up a Battlephase. That lets you insert a teching slot between T2 and T3, fixing the longstanding problem of where to put the Puma.

This is Ostheer's current teching structure. The number in brackets includes the cost of all that tech's prerequisites.

Oh, and to clarify, this is not a faction overhaul. This is shuffling tech prices around like happens most patches. All units arrive at the same time.

Current Tech Structure





Proposed Tech Structure A


Why not reorganise it like this?



All the unlock costs (including teching both T3 and T4 together) are exactly the same, but now the Battle Phases are much more evenly spaced.

Battle Phase 2 doesn't do anything in the nondoctrinal roster (just like Battle Phase 3 doesn't do anything in the live version), but it's an island between T2 and T3 where you can put the Puma and the StuG-E.

Proposed Tech Structure B


Structure A inserts one timing window between T2 and medium tanks. Structure B inserts two, and gives every tech a purpose in the nondoctrinal roster. It also provides a means to buff Ostheer in 1v1 without powering them up in teamgames.



To keep the timing on the T3 units the same, you lock them behind Battle Phase 3.

Any T3 unit you don't lock behind Battle Phase 3 comes 100 MP, 55 FU earlier. For example, if you didn't lock the StuG, Ostheer would be able to deploy a counter to enemy light vehicles that much earlier. That could be a good buff for them in 1v1 that shouldn't affect team games (where they usually have OKW and tech up faster anyway) that much.

It's also really easy to implement this one: all you'd have to do is change the costs of the techs and lock a few units behind BP3.
6 Feb 2020, 20:25 PM
#2
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 363 | Subs: 1

Interesting thoughts-

I'm not sure if Ostheer needs any of its T3 units sooner, though.

I think the simplest solution is to move some of BP2's fuel cost to the T3 building. This would make the Puma and Stug E come earlier (which they both need, I agree) without much alteration. Maybe it would make T3 skipping easier, but that's pretty niche as it is.
6 Feb 2020, 20:29 PM
#3
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3251

Interesting thoughts-

I'm not sure if Ostheer needs any of its T3 units sooner, though.

I think the simplest solution is to move some of BP2's fuel cost to the T3 building. This would make the Puma and Stug E come earlier (which they both need, I agree) without much alteration. Maybe it would make T3 skipping easier, but that's pretty niche as it is.


You can only get T3 units sooner in Proposal B if you don't lock them behind Battle Phase 3. In theory, you could lock all of them, although it'd be a little weird to be able to build a structure you can't make anything from yet.

The timing are completely unchanged in Proposal A. The point of Proposal A is to move the fairly pointless tech island between T3 and T4 to between T2 and T3, giving you somewhere to put the Puma.
6 Feb 2020, 20:30 PM
#4
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 2904 | Subs: 1

Proposed tech A is something I proposed yesterday, to halve the BP2 cost and put a mandatory HQ sidetech of that cost that lets you call in the Puma and Stugie. That way instead of paying 200mp 105 fuel for BP2 you have to first do a 100mp 50 fuel sidetech from HQ to allow yourself to do the 100mp 55 fuel BP2.
6 Feb 2020, 20:31 PM
#5
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3251

Proposed tech A is something I proposed yesterday, to halve the BP2 cost and put a mandatory HQ sidetech of that cost that lets you call in the Puma and Stugie. That way instead of paying 200mp 105 fuel for BP2 you have to first do a 100mp 50 fuel sidetech from HQ to allow yourself to do the 100mp 55 fuel BP2.


Yeah, that's the rough idea. I think my Proposal A is an easier and slightly more intuitive implementation, but the result is the same.
6 Feb 2020, 20:44 PM
#6
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 363 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Feb 2020, 20:29 PMLago


You can only get T3 units sooner in Proposal B if you don't lock them behind Battle Phase 3. In theory, you could lock all of them, although it'd be a little weird to be able to build a structure you can't make anything from yet.

The timing are completely unchanged in Proposal A. The point of Proposal A is to move the fairly pointless tech island between T3 and T4 to between T2 and T3, giving you somewhere to put the Puma.


I should have clarified that I meant for B, yeah. I don't think any T3 units should come without B's BP3, and that a building with no units right away is too weird and confusing.

Proposal A is good, but BP2 being pointless for most commanders feels wrong.

So, I'd prefer a cost shuffle (BP2 to T3) over requirement switching, because the current structure is very intuitive and established.
6 Feb 2020, 20:52 PM
#7
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3251

Proposal A is good, but BP2 being pointless for most commanders feels wrong.


The current Ostheer tech structure already has a pointless BP3 in it though. There's got to be a useless Battle Phase somewhere in the current tech tree.

It might as well go somewhere where it can do some good for some commander abilities. The Puma, the StuG-E, Osttruppen LMGs and the Assault Grenadier 6th man could all go on that BP2.

My favourite remains Proposal B with the StuG not being locked, because I think that's a clever answer to Ostheer's stated need for a 1v1 buff that doesn't affect teamgames.
6 Feb 2020, 23:50 PM
#8
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1377 | Subs: 3

Proposal A sounds great. It solves the Puma and Stug E timing issue, while not having to rebalance the units themselves (rip pintle dreams).



..but proposal B with the earlier Stug G sounds perfect (with a 60/45 fuel split). :thumbsup:
7 Feb 2020, 01:04 AM
#9
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8836 | Subs: 1

Or one can simply add a separate tech (with or without a cost) for doctrinal vehicles and make sure that timing the cost is appropriate...
7 Feb 2020, 01:07 AM
#10
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1377 | Subs: 3


So, I'd prefer a cost shuffle (BP2 to T3) over requirement switching, because the current structure is very intuitive and established.


That would make T4 rush too cheap again (and thus affect team games).

Proposal A could work with some research / build time adjustments (instant BP3, slow building T4).
Proposal B could work if early Stug G doesn't turn out too strong.

Otherwise I can only think of these changes to help the Puma / Stug E, while keeping the T4 buff:
- Making the Puma a call-in again and the Stug E either a call-in or adjusting its performance.
- Requiring T3 to be made before BP3 can be researched, so linearizing tech.
7 Feb 2020, 01:50 AM
#11
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

I Like this proposal, a lot.

Pro's:
A smaller bit-sized tech. Suitable for hard matches and lategame scaling. If you are able to hoard 50 Fuel you might unlock some weapon upgrades or abilities not requiring anymore FU to help OST.

This will keep the main base busy on teching instead of spamming MG42s or Pios. I suggest to take a lot of work on the battlephase timings to adjust OST intended powerspikes.

Still linear, but better arranged.This new tech can enable units that were too late on T3 or too soon on T2.

I could imagine FHT upgrade being locked to The new BP2, to nerf a bit its timing/avability. Or Ostwinds on BP2 and P4 on BP3. This is just an idea, not really a suggestion, dont bother derailing the thread for this.

Mid-Lategame decision making. Should now OST try luck on midgame with their best units or play safer for a late game approach? I like this kind of strategical situations, that the original tech does not have, its a faster-slower tech race.

A more controlled powerspike. With an additional mid tech in between 222 and P4, there is room to draw a new curve of powerspike, maybe OST will never be the best lategame faction (only doctrinal tools to keep up) but maybe a good mid game power hump will give all players, allied and axis a good challenge to tackle.


Cons:
A little unintuitive. Since OST always had 1 tech + 1 building system, if implemented, now players will be surprised to see 2 techs into 1 building alone, so there is going to be neccesary to implement information tools for the lesser involved players, that also matter and contribute to the playerbase.

I hope this idea see some light of the devs and consider it, to say the least.
7 Feb 2020, 01:54 AM
#12
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 371

Yeah, I would say they either need to allow the Puma/Stug E to come earlier or the Stug G to come out maybe 25 fuel or so later than a T-70 especially considering how strong it is currently. Puma should go back to being a call-in like the Stug E but should require Battlephase 2 to be teched before you can call it in, worst case scenario you limit it to 1 at a time like the Valentine tank. Or hell allow it to be built for the HQ like it is currently but require the cheaper BP2 that Lago proposed. This would be if the call-in timing would be too close to the the T-70's build time. Puma should probably come slightly later so the T-70 with decent income will still have a window to deal some damage but I won't be able to bleed you for 5+ minutes like it currently can as Ostheer. Or maybe instead of the Stug G being unlocked in Tier 3 by BP2 it's the Ostwind but that might be too strong, especially against USF/Brits who don't have the SU-76.
7 Feb 2020, 02:30 AM
#13
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 558

7 Feb 2020, 02:41 AM
#14
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 756

I really don't see whats tech restructure is gonna do for T4. Trying to skip T3 into T4 is still pointless(more often than nor suicidal) in 1v1's. This only makes T3 related stuff come later.
7 Feb 2020, 15:23 PM
#15
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3251

I really don't see whats tech restructure is gonna do for T4. Trying to skip T3 into T4 is still pointless(more often than nor suicidal) in 1v1's. This only makes T3 related stuff come later.


Did you actually read any of it?

T3 and T4 come at exactly same time.
10 Feb 2020, 06:25 AM
#16
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 276

+1 for the idea.
I like the B solution more.
10 Feb 2020, 21:14 PM
#17
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 662

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Feb 2020, 01:04 AMVipper
Or one can simply add a separate tech (with or without a cost) for doctrinal vehicles and make sure that timing the cost is appropriate...


Would that then reduce the cost of further tech?

Say it costs 50 fuel to unlock the StuG E

Do you have to pay
1) 50 (tech) + 75 (StuG E) + 90 (tech)?
2) 50 (tech) + 75 (StuG E) + 40 (reduced tech)?

No one will choose option 1 because you are then paying 125 fuel for a StuG E which is stupid, and option 2 is even more unintuitive


I like option B for Ost tech changes, you could nerf the StuG G to 480hp (3 shot) if it is too good. It would be very similar to the Puma at a later timing.
10 Feb 2020, 21:20 PM
#18
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 662

For option B you could also add the short P4 to T3 without requiring BP3. This would give Ost a “light” tank

The current gun from the command P4 would be fine but a 160hp health reduction would probably be necessary.
People might confuse it with the command panther, but giving it the Pintle MG instead of the commander would make it pretty distinguishable, so I don’t think that’ll be a problem.

I used to think this wouldn’t happen as the mod team wouldn’t add units, but now that the mod team is adding the Assault officer to UKF to fill a gap in their lineup the same could happen to Ost to fill the light tank gap in their lineup
10 Feb 2020, 21:24 PM
#19
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 1281 | Subs: 1

Your proposals would basically revert the previous and currently intended change for OSTs tech structure.

As far as I remember, the change previous (I think end of 2018) was made to allow for easier back teching from T4 into T3. I don't know if this was a huge issue though at the time or not, and which modes were affected.

I generally like option A. I never understood why OST has to do this weird double tech structure which is basically unnecessary apart from timing a couple of units/upgrades better. The job it does at the moment is only mediocre, I think your suggestions would improve that a lot. It would also slightly buff Osttruppen since they get their LMG about 2 min earlier.
10 Feb 2020, 21:32 PM
#20
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8836 | Subs: 1



Would that then reduce the cost of further tech?

Say it costs 50 fuel to unlock the StuG E

Do you have to pay
1) 50 (tech) + 75 (StuG E) + 90 (tech)?
2) 50 (tech) + 75 (StuG E) + 40 (reduced tech)?

No one will choose option 1 because you are then paying 125 fuel for a StuG E which is stupid, and option 2 is even more unintuitive


I like option B for Ost tech changes, you could nerf the StuG G to 480hp (3 shot) if it is too good. It would be very similar to the Puma at a later timing.

The tech does not have to have cost. It could simply be a time restrain for better timing of the units.

For instance in the case of the stug-E the tech would require T2 to be unlocked and 4 minutes to tech.

Now the unit is available with less tech cost but about the same time. (number might be off.)
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