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Tank Destroyer Poll

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5 Feb 2020, 21:17 PM
#121
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3504 | Subs: 1

5 Feb 2020, 21:47 PM
#122
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 958

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Feb 2020, 20:17 PMEsxile
Jackson is OP by necessity of being able to counter mediums and heavies.

Exactly; which is why the M36 needs to be "Split" into 2 units - one coming earlier, and better suited against mediums, and the other later and better against heavies.

"OP By necessity" isn't good game design, or justification for a unit being OP.

But Panther is exactly in the same position and both units need to be matched in that matter


Except the panther isn't the go-to medium counter; that's all of OST's other AT solutions (Stug, P4, Schrecks, Pak40). The panther only shows up later in the game (provided its an even game) when it's going to be facing heavies.

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Feb 2020, 21:17 PMEsxile
Enough to see Riflemen being buffed.


And many people would consider that to be a mistake, as is evident by the WCS stats.
5 Feb 2020, 22:09 PM
#123
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3386 | Subs: 1


Exactly; which is why the M36 needs to be "Split" into 2 units - one coming earlier, and better suited against mediums, and the other later and better against heavies.


I suggested a stock m18 hellcat a couple times. Don't think they would do something this drastic at this point though

120dmg, 140/150/160 pen or something like that, 560 HP, good mobility, relatively quick reload

Then you could nerf the Jackson harshly against mediums, specialize it more towards Panther and above
5 Feb 2020, 22:14 PM
#124
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3504 | Subs: 1


Exactly; which is why the M36 needs to be "Split" into 2 units - one coming earlier, and better suited against mediums, and the other later and better against heavies.



Indeed that's the most reasonable solution. And not a pure nerf like many are suggesting.
5 Feb 2020, 22:49 PM
#125
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

I really don't like the idea of more units being added to stock. I think usf has the tools it needs they simply need to be refined.

The sherman for example should be the workhorse of the usf, not the Jackson. Perhaps modifying radio net to include increased pen? I know it's already a solid vet ability but if it adds some diversity and reduces fucking Jackson spam I'm all for it. We solve the medium AT issue we can remove that aspect of the Jackson equation.
5 Feb 2020, 23:08 PM
#126
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17623 | Subs: 9


Exactly; which is why the M36 needs to be "Split" into 2 units - one coming earlier, and better suited against mediums, and the other later and better against heavies.

Like StuG/JP4 and panther?

Except the panther isn't the go-to medium counter; that's all of OST's other AT solutions (Stug, P4, Schrecks, Pak40). The panther only shows up later in the game (provided its an even game) when it's going to be facing heavies.

And vast majority after P4s just bee-lines to P5s, ignoring existence of StuG.
Pretty much only players who seem to use them are top players+dane.
6 Feb 2020, 00:12 AM
#127
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

480 HP 200 damage Jacksons could work fine if the Stuart was worth a damn after the light vehicle phase. It was originally meant to be a utility light that debuffed other vehicles to swing fights, but Relic for some reason turned it into a super T-70 for a bit. Then it got nerfed into a shit AEC, paying a fortune in penetration and damage for a high armour value that's irrelevant against everything but 222 spam.

A reworked Shell Shock that scales by vehicle class could do the trick.

That, and smoke unlocked by Major tier so it doesn't just die.
6 Feb 2020, 00:39 AM
#128
avatar of kitekaze

Posts: 378


Exactly; which is why the M36 needs to be "Split" into 2 units - one coming earlier, and better suited against mediums, and the other later and better against heavies.

"OP By necessity" isn't good game design, or justification for a unit being OP.




I suggested a stock m18 hellcat a couple times. Don't think they would do something this drastic at this point though

120dmg, 140/150/160 pen or something like that, 560 HP, good mobility, relatively quick reload

Then you could nerf the Jackson harshly against mediums, specialize it more towards Panther and above


jump backJump back to quoted post5 Feb 2020, 22:14 PMEsxile


Indeed that's the most reasonable solution. And not a pure nerf like many are suggesting.


I've suggested that idea about 5 years ago. Nostalgic, but it's well to look back one again (ignore the soviet one): https://www.coh2.org/topic/45215/soviet-and-usf-late-stock/page/1
6 Feb 2020, 01:19 AM
#129
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3386 | Subs: 1

I really don't like the idea of more units being added to stock. I think usf has the tools it needs they simply need to be refined.

The sherman for example should be the workhorse of the usf, not the Jackson. Perhaps modifying radio net to include increased pen? I know it's already a solid vet ability but if it adds some diversity and reduces fucking Jackson spam I'm all for it. We solve the medium AT issue we can remove that aspect of the Jackson equation.


I'd like to see the Stuarts AT buffed more than anything. Increase the cost too if needed, but it's window of usefulness is pretty short imo. At least in 2v2
6 Feb 2020, 08:20 AM
#130
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3504 | Subs: 1

I really don't like the idea of more units being added to stock. I think usf has the tools it needs they simply need to be refined.

The sherman for example should be the workhorse of the usf, not the Jackson. Perhaps modifying radio net to include increased pen? I know it's already a solid vet ability but if it adds some diversity and reduces fucking Jackson spam I'm all for it. We solve the medium AT issue we can remove that aspect of the Jackson equation.


Sherman changes is my go to solution but there are probably parameters we don't see since this solution has never been considered.
6 Feb 2020, 11:01 AM
#131
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



I'd like to see the Stuarts AT buffed more than anything. Increase the cost too if needed, but it's window of usefulness is pretty short imo. At least in 2v2


I too think the Stuart is a key player here. Could even tie increased stats behind major or even all officers if needed. Call it a new variant or something and increase pen and damage so it can be better support.
jump backJump back to quoted post6 Feb 2020, 08:20 AMEsxile


Sherman changes is my go to solution but there are probably parameters we don't see since this solution has never been considered.

I think they don't want to risk breaking something that is arguably fine atm which is fair but while the unit is fine the faction is not. I'd personally make the AP shells more AP and less general purpose. More pen and less aoe but not enough to overshadow the AT variants. It's a fine line but I have faith.
6 Feb 2020, 15:46 PM
#132
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Feb 2020, 08:20 AMEsxile
Sherman changes is my go to solution but there are probably parameters we don't see since this solution has never been considered.


It seems pretty obvious to me. The Sherman is both USF's generalist medium tank and its anti-infantry specialist if you toggle its HE rounds on. It's a Cromwell and a Centaur at the same time, which is why it's such a good unit.

Making it a tank destroyer on top of that would be ridiculous.

6 Feb 2020, 16:29 PM
#133
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3504 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Feb 2020, 15:46 PMLago


It seems pretty obvious to me. The Sherman is both USF's generalist medium tank and its anti-infantry specialist if you toggle its HE rounds on. It's a Cromwell and a Centaur at the same time, which is why it's such a good unit.

Making it a tank destroyer on top of that would be ridiculous.



Sherman doesn't need to be that good vs infantry and could see its damage power cursor moved more from AI to AT. And Ammo swap is already a good limitation to his potential, if there is a tank and infantry in front of it, it can harm both at the same time.
6 Feb 2020, 16:39 PM
#134
avatar of CobaltX105

Posts: 87

Perhaps a global upgrade similar to what existed in COH: an upgrade from the Battalion CP could unlock improved AP rounds with better pen but zero AOE, just like a tank destroyer. However, it would entirely replace the old AP rounds.

This would make it either a decent AT unit or good AI unit at any given moment, but remove it's ability to do both.
6 Feb 2020, 17:35 PM
#135
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Perhaps a global upgrade similar to what existed in COH: an upgrade from the Battalion CP could unlock improved AP rounds with better pen but zero AOE, just like a tank destroyer. However, it would entirely replace the old AP rounds.

This would make it either a decent AT unit or good AI unit at any given moment, but remove it's ability to do both.


You'd need to replace the HE rounds, not the basic AP.

Swapping HE and AP for HE and HVAP isn't a tradeoff, it's a huge buff.
6 Feb 2020, 19:21 PM
#136
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 789



I suggested a stock m18 hellcat a couple times. Don't think they would do something this drastic at this point though

120dmg, 140/150/160 pen or something like that, 560 HP, good mobility, relatively quick reload

Then you could nerf the Jackson harshly against mediums, specialize it more towards Panther and above



CANT ADD NEW MODELS WHY I HAVE TO TELL PEOPLE THIS SO MUCH

Just use the fucking m10
6 Feb 2020, 19:50 PM
#137
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 958

I suggested a stock m18 hellcat a couple times. Don't think they would do something this drastic at this point though

120dmg, 140/150/160 pen or something like that, 560 HP, good mobility, relatively quick reload

Then you could nerf the Jackson harshly against mediums, specialize it more towards Panther and above


Unfortunately, as KiwiBirb put it...
Can't add new models


We really only have the current units that are in-game to work with; if we're lucky, we might be able to pull SP-Campaign specific stuff, but iirc, there are limitations there, too. That's why I (and others) have been suggesting the M10; it's a TD that exists in the current game, that could be moved to somewhere else.

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Feb 2020, 22:14 PMEsxile
Indeed that's the most reasonable solution. And not a pure nerf like many are suggesting.


The thing is, it would be a pure nerf to the M36, sort of. If the M36 were split in two (one good vs. mediums, the other heavies), it would likely be split into... the M36 and M10, for the reasons I said above.

The M36, being the visually bigger TD, would almost certainly be the "good vs. heavies" tank, so it would be nerfed in terms of its strength against mediums.


Like StuG/JP4 and panther?


And vast majority after P4s just bee-lines to P5s, ignoring existence of StuG.
Pretty much only players who seem to use them are top players+dane.


Like the StuG/JP and Panther are intended to be, yes. Unfortunately, the Panther has the same issue the M36 has, where it's good against everything. That's partly because of its design, but also partly because of the "60 range TD Meta" right now.

At least in the case of the panther, both Axis teams have access to 'lighter' TDs, which should fill that roll better once the Panther has been 'specialized' into specific roll (likely good vs. heavies, bad vs. everything else).

I've suggested that idea about 5 years ago. Nostalgic, but it's well to look back one again (ignore the soviet one): https://www.coh2.org/topic/45215/soviet-and-usf-late-stock/page/1


This is good implementation of a similar idea; although I'm not too sure about a non-doc Priest, at least with its current stats.
6 Feb 2020, 20:06 PM
#138
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Like the StuG/JP and Panther are intended to be, yes. Unfortunately, the Panther has the same issue the M36 has, where it's good against everything. That's partly because of its design, but also partly because of the "60 range TD Meta" right now.


It's not good against everything per point of fuel though. It's 185 FU.

It pulverises everything up to and including Comets in a close range brawl, but it's a fair fight against much cheaper tank destroyers at range.


The Jackson doesn't need splitting into a medium silver bullet and a heavy silver bullet. It just needs to be good at range and bad close up, like the other 60 range TDs.
6 Feb 2020, 20:30 PM
#139
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3386 | Subs: 1


CANT ADD NEW MODELS WHY I HAVE TO TELL PEOPLE THIS SO MUCH



Unfortunately, as KiwiBirb put it...


I'm well aware guys, I already acknowledged that. Kiwi, fucking relax:


I suggested a stock m18 hellcat a couple times. Don't think they would do something this drastic at this point though


I only say the hellcat cause making m10 stock fucks up Armor Company. But like I already said.... It's probably too late to add something
6 Feb 2020, 20:37 PM
#140
avatar of CobaltX105

Posts: 87

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Feb 2020, 17:35 PMLago


You'd need to replace the HE rounds, not the basic AP.

Swapping HE and AP for HE and HVAP isn't a tradeoff, it's a huge buff.


Annnnd you're absolutely right. I think it was my bias USF bias that kicked in there, it really was supposed to be a trade-off.

So yeah, loses the really good AI ability for improved level of AT, which probably shouldn't scale with veterancy the way the 76mm does.
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