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Winter balance (1/2020) feedback OKW

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29 Jan 2020, 18:18 PM
#1
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7615 | Subs: 1

OKW 1.3
HEAVY TANKS

In order to make it more rewarding to kill heavy call-in vehicles, all heavy tanks, heavy tank destroyers and heavy assault guns now have the following:

-Recharge standardized to 3 minutes
-Cooldown on ability now starts upon death of the heavy tank

*Special thanks to community modder Sneakeye for providing the solution for this implementation.

Command Tiger

-CP requirement from 9 to 12
AOE damage from 1/0.25/0.15 to 0.75/0.25/0.15
AOE distance from 0.25/1.5/3 to 0/1/3
Panzer Commander removed from the OKW Tiger
Veterancy 2 scatter bonus removed

The Tiger got quite a few adjustments that were deemed necessary to remove some of its somewhat oppressive performance. To compensate, we are granting the Tiger a bonus to its turret traverse speed at veterancy 2, something it lacked due to its previous scatter bonus which has now been removed.

To make up for the removal of the Panzer Commander upgrade, we are removing one of the penalties of the 'Command Tiger' ability to encourage the use of this ability.

Veterancy 2 now adds +30% turret traverse speed
Command Tiger accuracy penalty during 'Command Tiger'ability removed


Name: "Command Tiger"ability


Panzerfusiliers

The increased range to AT Grenades from veterancy 2 made it too difficult to kite against Panzerfusiliers and gave them too much range against most vehicles when combined with their 5 to 6 man squad. This is being addressed. Furthermore, units will now callout Panzerfusilier grenades that are being thrown.

Veterancy 2 AT Grenade range boost removed
Fixed an issue where Panzerfusilier Grenades did not have a callout/warning when thrown.


Panzerfaust - all variants, including OKW

The speed of the Panzerfaust projectiles being lowered as an attempt to remove the issue of Panzerfausts occasionally missing their targets.

-Projectile speed from 55 to 25

OKW Battlegroup Headquarters

Medic search range from 20 to 25

Sturmtiger

-Grenade ability is now a timed passive. Automatically attacks enemies for 30 seconds
-Grenade AOE damage from 1/0.35/0.25 to 0.75/0.4/0.25
-Grenade AOE distance from 1.25/2.5/3.75 to 0/1.25/3.75
-Grenade reload duration from 0 to 4
-Grenade deflection damage removed

Due to all the recent changes to all heavy tanks, the previously established restriction of mutual exclusion with the Tiger II has been removed.

Can now be called in if the Tiger II has already been deployed (or vice versa)


Jagdtiger

-Fuel cost from 260 to 245

LE.IG/Mortar Half-Track Incendiary Barrage

-DOT Incendiary +25% against Commonwealth Emplacement tag removed.
-Brings DOT damage per tick versus defenses from 4.67 to 3.75

Fallschirmjaeger

-Panzerfaust removed

IR 251 Half-track

Due to an unfixable bug that severely affects gameplay, the IR halftrack has been reworked. The searchlight can no longer spot enemies in the fog of war, and instead the unit will now serve as a recon tool that provides a lot of direct vision.

-Vision now narrows to 120 degree arc when set-up and increases vision to 80
-New ability: Detection – Spot nearby units around the half-track on the mini-map for 30 seconds. 15 munitions and 60 seconds recharge.
-Fuel cost from 5 to 10

The overhauled Infrared Searchlight Halftrack is getting slightly more sight range to make it easier and less vulnerable to use on the front line.
OKW LeFH 18

-Population from 15 to 13

Bug Fixes

-Fixed an issue where the Panzerfusilier Grenade AOE distance values were not properly set to 1/2/3
-Le.FH 105mm Howitzers should now have 5 levels of veterancy when recrewed by OKW
-Sturm Offizer Forced Retreat can no longer be used on retreating units
-Fixed an issue where the Puma Aimed Shot applied to the Crocodile’s flamethrower rather than the main gun
-Fixed an issue where the Volksgrenadier cover sight bonus activated at veterancy 5 rather than veterancy 4.
------------------------------------------------
1.2

1.1

Ver 1.0


(edited to updated to ver 1.3)
29 Jan 2020, 20:27 PM
#2
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 483

OKW tiger shouldn't have all build like KT,and all heavy need highest tech is not smart change,maybe just increase CP and change CD system.
IRHT 70m sight I think is little short,maybe increase to 90,but like old time sight only 20º with turn lamp
StormTiger Grenade change good,but still weak,maybe automatic grenade be default weapon,and vet1 unlock manual grenade(data use old,different for automatic grenade) like Comet?And I think better remove StormTiger reload system,or increase range and don't let rocket always block by anything……or just make ST be long range and one shot artillery like B4?
29 Jan 2020, 20:27 PM
#3
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2082

I like everything except Tiger and IR HT changes. The tiger needs some anti inf nerfs too and the IR HT rework is the right direction but atm its complete trash for its cost. It either needs lower manpower cost or better sight range
29 Jan 2020, 20:32 PM
#4
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1891

Jagdtiger doesn't need cost reduction but better performance IMO.

It's just not good enough as it is. It often gets countered by the same things it is designed to counter.

- Mark target + 2 SU85s delete it
- 2 HVAP Jackons delete it
- T34 ram + IL2 bombs delete it when trying to counter ISU etc.
- You only need JT to counter ISU but ISU has mark target + IL2 bombs with it and both make using the JT very hard and risky. So I don't really know how this is supposed to be balanced.

IMO just not good enough. It takes so long to rotate, aim and shoot. Give me Elefant any day over this unit. Better to get two JP4s instead and combine them with Tiger or KT in almost any case.

Tiger can not be locked behind SWS when OKW tech is so much more expensive than Soviet tech. In what world is an IS2 arriving 50 fuel earlier fair?

At the same time Tiger needs an anti-infantry nerf as aerafield said. No matter what CP or tech requirements people will always go for Tiger because it's an absolute killing machine and feels absurd when vetted. Considering IS2 got nerfed it would only make sense if the Tiger got a nerf too because it's even stronger than the IS2 at the moment.
29 Jan 2020, 22:03 PM
#5
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7615 | Subs: 1

IR 251 Half-track


Changes to IR 251 are simply in the wrong direction and badly design. The unit hardly worth 200/10 fuel in 1vs1. There are many solution to make this unit more interesting.

Suggestions:
Make the unit scale by adding shared veterancy and vet bonuses.

Add micro to unit instead of move once and forget unit making the search light a timed ability or/and by manually aiming the search light.

Increase sight to 50 as other reckon vehicles.

Add utility by allowing it to:
Mark targets
or
lay tellar mines
or
launch flare
or
cloak when search light is not in use
or
the unit can now pick and drop med kits and/or create them, or medic similar to Luft air drop medic kit
or
add smoke canister similar to smoke Sherman has.
or
deploy autobots that clear minefield or/and repair

Add unique features to IR search light like:
Provide "hammer trucking" for enemy units with in the cone
or
reveals units in smoke
or
has a long detection in cone and reveal cloak units
or
Sniper are reveal or can not cloak once they fire
or
Vamp St44 get an accuracy bonus or anti-cover bonus
or
IR Panther can not shoot more accurately

29 Jan 2020, 23:36 PM
#6
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 1997

Sturmtiger needs to receive an actual Vet 5 bonus that’s good. Give it something like extra 5 range at vet 5 or better rotation on top of the current vet 5.
29 Jan 2020, 23:40 PM
#7
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 641

Jagdtiger doesn't need cost reduction but better performance IMO.

It's just not good enough as it is. It often gets countered by the same things it is designed to counter.

- Mark target + 2 SU85s delete it
- 2 HVAP Jackons delete it
- T34 ram + IL2 bombs delete it when trying to counter ISU etc.
- You only need JT to counter ISU but ISU has mark target + IL2 bombs with it and both make using the JT very hard and risky. So I don't really know how this is supposed to be balanced.

IMO just not good enough. It takes so long to rotate, aim and shoot. Give me Elefant any day over this unit. Better to get two JP4s instead and combine them with Tiger or KT in almost any case.

Tiger can not be locked behind SWS when OKW tech is so much more expensive than Soviet tech. In what world is an IS2 arriving 50 fuel earlier fair?

At the same time Tiger needs an anti-infantry nerf as aerafield said. No matter what CP or tech requirements people will always go for Tiger because it's an absolute killing machine and feels absurd when vetted. Considering IS2 got nerfed it would only make sense if the Tiger got a nerf too because it's even stronger than the IS2 at the moment.


tiger can consistently take out models to bleed the enemy, but it doesn't insta wipe squads, compare the ai between the Pershing and the tiger, if the tiger's ai is OP, then Pershing's ai is out of this world. They way the tiger can reliably hit individual models is how all heavies should work imo, this means ther are less random wipes, more consistency and more time for your opponent to react while still making the tiger worth going for.
30 Jan 2020, 08:32 AM
#8
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2194 | Subs: 6

the IR HT rework is the right direction but atm its complete trash for its cost. It either needs lower manpower cost or better sight range


70 vision in a wide arc for a token price of 200mp/10fu is already better than most other recon unit in the game, except for a vetted 222 or 251 with spotting scopes but those are doctrinal, significantly more expensive and harder to get.
Numbers can be tweaked a bit further for sure but I think most people are underestimating how good 70 vision range already is. Especially considering it's a stock unit.
30 Jan 2020, 08:53 AM
#9
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 967

Jagdtiger doesn't need cost reduction but better performance IMO.

It's just not good enough as it is. It often gets countered by the same things it is designed to counter.

- Mark target + 2 SU85s delete it
- 2 HVAP Jackons delete it



Hah good one but this only works if okw player is noob. Its like 2 shermans versus panther looks good only on paper. About ram and IŁ2 bombs i agree but this is more about ram no jagtiger up.
Seriously guys why u even want buff for that thing. Missing old days 4v4 90%axis-10%alies serching ratio.
30 Jan 2020, 09:11 AM
#10
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1891

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2020, 23:40 PMAlphrum


tiger can consistently take out models to bleed the enemy, but it doesn't insta wipe squads


:clap: Yeah right...The Tiger doesn't wipe squads. Next thing you want to tell me is that Santa Claus is real am I right?
30 Jan 2020, 09:13 AM
#11
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 14562 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2020, 23:40 PMAlphrum


tiger can consistently take out models to bleed the enemy, but it doesn't insta wipe squads, compare the ai between the Pershing and the tiger, if the tiger's ai is OP, then Pershing's ai is out of this world. They way the tiger can reliably hit individual models is how all heavies should work imo, this means ther are less random wipes, more consistency and more time for your opponent to react while still making the tiger worth going for.

Pershing is giving up a lot of durability for its firepower.
Tiger is "have it all" package in comparison.
30 Jan 2020, 12:55 PM
#12
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6780 | Subs: 1



70 vision in a wide arc for a token price of 200mp/10fu is already better than most other recon unit in the game, except for a vetted 222 or 251 with spotting scopes but those are doctrinal, significantly more expensive and harder to get.
Numbers can be tweaked a bit further for sure but I think most people are underestimating how good 70 vision range already is. Especially considering it's a stock unit.


I have already expressed my opinion in the other thread, but if you think people under appreciate "how good 70" vision is, i guess you won't understand how people under appreciate 120 range vision with permanent maphacks included.

Intel is all good and dandy but there is a reason abilities like, tracking, infantry tracking, radio silence, radio intercept, beacons and so on never really took off despite their power and usefulness. They barely break awareness after some people show explicitly how some features are broken.
30 Jan 2020, 13:00 PM
#13
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2194 | Subs: 6

Intel is all good and dandy but there is a reason abilities like, tracking, infantry tracking, radio silence, radio intercept, beacons and so on never really took off despite their power and usefulness. They barely break awareness after some people show explicitly how some features are broken.


Popularity =/= effectiveness. Thinks like Combined Arms, UKF Command Vehicle or a 251 for reinforcing with spotting scopes are all very powerful abilities and yet people rarely use them. Doesn't mean they should be buffed. The same goes for the Uhu. It should be a good recon tool by all means, but given how it's stock and it's cheap, I don't see any reason to buff it to such lengths that people will only use it because it's overpowered (like now). If players don't value good recon then that's a player problem, not a balance problem. 70 view range is already enough to light up an entire crucial area (like a VP) from a relatively safe distance.

I can see it getting bumped to around 80 range and perhaps with another special ability if tests/feedback reveal that 70 makes it awkward to use, but anything more is just going to be oppressive.
30 Jan 2020, 13:13 PM
#14
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6780 | Subs: 1



Popularity =/= effectiveness. Thinks like Combined Arms, UKF Command Vehicle or a 251 for reinforcing with spotting scopes are all very powerful abilities and yet people rarely use them. Doesn't mean they should be buffed. The same goes for the Uhu. It should be a good recon tool by all means, but given how it's stock and it's cheap, I don't see any reason to buff it to such lengths that people will only use it because it's overpowered (like now). If players don't value good recon then that's a player problem, not a balance problem. 70 view range is already enough to light up an entire crucial area (like a VP) from a relatively safe distance.


It becomes a balance problem when the cost opportunity of those abilities don't hold it's weight against other more direct options.
30 Jan 2020, 14:11 PM
#15
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 641



:clap: Yeah right...The Tiger doesn't wipe squads. Next thing you want to tell me is that Santa Claus is real am I right?


i'm talking about 1-2 hitting and wiping full health squads.
30 Jan 2020, 14:15 PM
#16
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2082



70 vision in a wide arc for a token price of 200mp/10fu is already better than most other recon unit in the game, except for a vetted 222 or 251 with spotting scopes but those are doctrinal, significantly more expensive and harder to get.
Numbers can be tweaked a bit further for sure but I think most people are underestimating how good 70 vision range already is. Especially considering it's a stock unit.


yeah but now compare this unit with a Kubel. You pay 10 more fuel for a unit that has a bit more sight range but is forced to be static, has an annoying setup time, has worse mobility, cannot fight, cannot cap territory, and whose minimap detection ability is arguably worse. The HT also has to stand in the open, but a Kubel can just drive behind a shotblocker and use vet1 ability in case of danger. Absolutely not worth it if you ask me.

Honestly I think the very best solution for this would be to add veterancy to the IR HT :) So it becomes stronger and more interesting over time but you have to work for it. Ofc with shared veterancy and 20-30% lower veterancy requirements than a Kubel.

The veterancy could look like this for example:

Vet 1: +5 sight range when static
Vet 2: +1.5 speed, +1.2 acceleration, +4 rotation (unit has now better mobility than vet 0 kubel, but worse mobility than vet 2 kubel)
Vet 3: +5 sight range when static, -50% searchlight setup time
Vet 4: "Detection" ability cost from 10 to 5... or Detection becomes now passive
Vet 5: +10 frontal armor, +5 rear armor


Thoughts?
30 Jan 2020, 14:27 PM
#17
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7615 | Subs: 1


...
Thoughts?

Agree is most points. Check post 5
30 Jan 2020, 14:34 PM
#18
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 1997

I see 2 avenues of change for the IR 251 HT:

1) Same beam as now, but shorter range and any suppressed/pinned units get unsuppressed when the beam passes over them.

2) Longer beam than now, but units are only revealed on the mini map and tactical map.
30 Jan 2020, 14:37 PM
#19
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2194 | Subs: 6

yeah but now compare this unit with a Kubel. You pay 10 more fuel for a unit that has a bit more sight range


A bit more sight range is 70 vs 50, a 40% increase, and most importantly it's enough to stand a bit behind friendly lines while still allowing ATGs and TDs (55-60 range) to fire at their max range. Something the Kubel can not do.

I think adding veterancy is a bit weird, given how the unit can not gain any on its own. Fighting is going to happen around it regardless, so the player essentially has to do nothing special to rank it up. I think it's probably better to tweak its base stats slightly so it'll fit its new more active role better. The current stats are based on the thing being able to hide behind a shotblocker half the map away.
30 Jan 2020, 14:43 PM
#20
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2082




I think adding veterancy is a bit weird, given how the unit can not gain any on its own.


A Kubel or un-upgraded Halftrack also cannot gain any veterancy on its own after a couple of minutes, assuming your opponent is above rank 5000. And Im rly not sure if slight tweaks will be enough to make this unit interesting.

Given how unpopular the live version IR HT is (fortunately), I guess you get a feeling how dead the new IR HT is gonna be if it stays too similar like it is now



A bit more sight range is 70 vs 50, a 40% increase,


A kubel also has 360° sight
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