Who has ideas like this??
OKW for Tiger 40+60+135-10 starting fuel = 225 fuel
Soviets for IS2= 10+15+80+90- 20 starting fuel = 175 fuel
Meanwhile Ostheer Tiger has no such restriction and is free to skip all buildings so the amount they theoretically need to get a Tiger would be 40+90+25-20 Starting fuel = 135 Fuel. Considering you need T1 and T2 in most cases it will go up to 165 fuel which is still WAY cheaper than the OKW tiger for no apparent reason. Why these double standards?
USF Pershing will now cost: 55+55+120-20 = 210 fuel. Again way more than Soviets need for Pershing. And that isn't even including ambulance.
Locking OKW Tiger behind all SWS is super unfair
23 Jan 2020, 20:33 PM
#1
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
23 Jan 2020, 21:14 PM
#2
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
While I haven't tested it, the notes says "you need all tech structures", so doesn't that include all tech buildings as well?
Does that mean you need to back tech T1 with soviets if you open with cons into T2?
Without even looking at the numbers, it does seem like it's going to cause gaps in timing though. Could be wrong though.
Does that mean you need to back tech T1 with soviets if you open with cons into T2?
Without even looking at the numbers, it does seem like it's going to cause gaps in timing though. Could be wrong though.
23 Jan 2020, 21:18 PM
#3
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
While I haven't tested it, the notes says "you need all tech structures", so doesn't that include all tech buildings as well?
Does that mean you need to back tech T1 with soviets if you open with cons into T2?
Without even looking at the numbers, it does seem like it's going to cause gaps in timing though. Could be wrong though.
IS2 needs all tech buildings too but back-teching for T1 costs 10 fuel while back-teching as OKW for BG HQ or Mech HQ costs 40 or 60 fuel. On top of that Soviet's overall tech is just way cheaper in total compared to OKW. I don't see what justifies an IS2 arriving 50 fuel earlier than a OKW Tiger. It's completely unbalanced.
23 Jan 2020, 21:18 PM
#4
Posts: 3260
Ostheer is almost entirely absent from the patch notes. I think it's safe to assume the bulk of Ostheer changes are in development and still to come.
Locking the heavy generalist behind all buildings has been done to SOV, USF and OKW. It's a pretty minor barrier for SOV, but a meaningful teching gap for USF and OKW.
I'd wager Ostheer'll get a similar restriction where they need both the T3 and T4 building up.
Locking the heavy generalist behind all buildings has been done to SOV, USF and OKW. It's a pretty minor barrier for SOV, but a meaningful teching gap for USF and OKW.
I'd wager Ostheer'll get a similar restriction where they need both the T3 and T4 building up.
23 Jan 2020, 21:22 PM
#5
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
IS2 needs all tech buildings too but back-teching for T1 costs 10 fuel while back-teching as OKW for BG HQ or Mech HQ costs 40 or 60 fuel. On top of that Soviet's overall tech is just way cheaper in total compared to OKW. I don't see what justifies an IS2 arriving 50 fuel earlier than a OKW Tiger. It's completely unbalanced.
You're actually right in the OP though, the notes only specifiy the OKW tiger requireing all tech. I think Lago is going to be right here. The lack of OST changes means they're either working on them still or even if they aren't, the responses of no changes will create some changes.
23 Jan 2020, 21:23 PM
#6
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
Ostheer is almost entirely absent from the patch notes. I think it's safe to assume the bulk of Ostheer changes are in development and still to come.
If this is the case they should have communicated this with the patch notes because otherwise these heavy tank changes make even less sense than they do now.
IMO locking OKW Tiger behind all SWS would be game-breaking in terms of balance. Before rushing a Tiger cost OKW (BG+T4-10) and Soviets both 165 fuel (T2+3+4-20) + 230 for Tiger/IS2. At least then the timing was balanced. Now there would be a significant timing gap between the units that just can't be justified in any way.
23 Jan 2020, 21:31 PM
#7
Posts: 55
USF Pershing will now cost: 55+55+120-20 = 210 fuel. Again way more than Soviets need for Pershing. And that isn't even including ambulance.
The calculation for Pershing is wrong. You only need all buildings, not all techs. So, it's 35+35+120=190 Fuel. Although, since Ambulance is a necessity, you can say that it's 200F.
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23 Jan 2020, 21:38 PM
#8
Posts: 3260
If this is the case they should have communicated this with the patch notes because otherwise these heavy tank changes make even less sense than they do now.
IMO locking OKW Tiger behind all SWS would be game-breaking in terms of balance. Before rushing a Tiger cost OKW (BG+T4-10) and Soviets both 165 fuel (T2+3+4-20) + 230 for Tiger/IS2. At least then the timing was balanced. Now there would be a significant timing gap between the units that just can't be justified in any way.
The idea is to create a teching barrier between mediums and heavies. The problem is Soviet's tech is structured differently and it's a much smaller gap.
I can't really see what else they can do apart from making the KV-2 the rush-heavy and putting the IS-2 at CP14 with the Elefant and Jagdtiger. Crank up the cost of the heavies themselves, perhaps?
23 Jan 2020, 21:38 PM
#9
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
Remove the "needs all tech structures" aspect and replace with a simple 20fuel increase on all heavy tanks.
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23 Jan 2020, 21:45 PM
#10
Posts: 730
Waiting for next patch,this change for all heavy too stupid，it should different request for different faction，also all heavy shouldn't have same call in cost，IS2 too powerful should more expensive,Pershine should more cheap
23 Jan 2020, 21:46 PM
#11
Posts: 3600 | Subs: 1
Imo all tech structure is the way to go. Put the Ostheer Tiger behind T4 for 225 fuel.
The problem with comparing Sov/USF/Brit with Ostheer/OKW is that allied factions have side upgrades while Axis faction just get everything while teching.
Full upgrade taken in account, all factions are around the same cost once all tiers built.
The problem with comparing Sov/USF/Brit with Ostheer/OKW is that allied factions have side upgrades while Axis faction just get everything while teching.
Full upgrade taken in account, all factions are around the same cost once all tiers built.
23 Jan 2020, 21:47 PM
#12
Posts: 3260
Remove the "needs all tech structures" aspect and replace with a simple 20fuel increase on all heavy tanks.
20 FU is pocket change. The OKW and USF tech changes are 300ish MP 40ish FU teching barriers, which is about the magnitude needed imo.
The live setup is like sticking the OKW P4 in Mechanized: who'd get the Luchs when a 75 FU wait gets you a vehicle that dominates every light on the field?
Imo all tech structure is the way to go. Put the Ostheer Tiger behind T4 for 225 fuel.
That biases the Ostheer roster against T3 builds.
If you're locking Ost behind buildings, make it T3 and T4. That way you don't favour one teching path over the other.
23 Jan 2020, 21:57 PM
#13
Posts: 3600 | Subs: 1
20 FU is pocket change. The OKW and USF tech changes are 300ish MP 40ish FU teching barriers, which is about the magnitude needed imo.
The live setup is like sticking the OKW P4 in Mechanized: who'd get the Luchs when a 75 FU wait gets you a vehicle that dominates every light on the field?
That biases the Ostheer roster against T3 builds.
If you're locking Ost behind buildings, make it T3 and T4. That way you don't favour one teching path over the other.
If all building are mandatory you'll have your T3 built anyway. Now I understood the point of all building tech is to not make Heavies a simple step forward after medium but a unit requiring extra cost before being available.
23 Jan 2020, 21:58 PM
#14
Posts: 3260
If all building are mandatory you'll have your T3 built anyway. Now I understood the point of all building tech is to not make Heavies a simple step forward after medium but a unit requiring extra cost before being available.
I misunderstood. When you said 'put the Tiger behind T4', I assumed you meant just T4.
23 Jan 2020, 22:01 PM
#15
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
Full upgrade taken in account, all factions are around the same cost once all tiers built.
That's completely wrong.
Soviet complete tech-> 10 T1 + 15 T2 + 80 T3 + 90 T4 + 10 AT grenade + 5 Molotov - 20 Starting fuel = 190 total
OKW complete tech -> 40 BG + 60 Mech + 135 Schwer + 15 medic + 15 repair - 10 starting fuel = 255 total
23 Jan 2020, 22:03 PM
#16
Posts: 479
Honestly I like the idea of trying to make all heavies like the KT but I don't think its feasible with multiple factions having different methods of teching. The 2 CP increase across the board and 3 Minute standardization to cooldown once a heavy is destroyed should be almost enough to make them not feel as oppressive but I still think Heavies are slightly too good against infantry. Also I am assuming the IS-2 and KV-2 are going to be 12 CP since they are currently 10 in the live game.
23 Jan 2020, 22:07 PM
#17
Posts: 3260
The problem isn't OKW's tech barrier being too high, it's SOV's tech barrier being too low.
23 Jan 2020, 22:08 PM
#18
Posts: 17884 | Subs: 8
Who has ideas like this??
OKW for Tiger 40+60+135-10 starting fuel = 225 fuel
Soviets for IS2= 10+15+80+90- 20 starting fuel = 175 fuel
Meanwhile Ostheer Tiger has no such restriction and is free to skip all buildings so the amount they theoretically need to get a Tiger would be 40+90+25-20 Starting fuel = 135 Fuel. Considering you need T1 and T2 in most cases it will go up to 165 fuel which is still WAY cheaper than the OKW tiger for no apparent reason. Why these double standards?
USF Pershing will now cost: 55+55+120-20 = 210 fuel. Again way more than Soviets need for Pershing. And that isn't even including ambulance.
And now go and compare manpower.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
23 Jan 2020, 22:09 PM
#19
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
And now go and compare manpower.
Yeah because manpower is the limiting factor in who can get a heavy tank earlier
23 Jan 2020, 22:12 PM
#20
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
The problem isn't OKW's tech barrier being too high, it's SOV's tech barrier being too low.
The fact that these tech barriers vary so much just means using tech requirements like "all tech buildings need to be built" impossible because some factions will get screwed over. I can't believe the balance team didn't think about this before they wrote this preview.
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