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COH2 winter balance mod - discussion

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24 Jan 2020, 09:06 AM
#141
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



From the original changelog:

Gives the squad 2 Thompson SMGs and arms the rest with Sten Guns and No.77 White Phosphorous Grenades, and removes their Out-of-Cover penalties; Sten Guns use Assault Engineer Grease Gun stats.

Their identical stats can be seen in the mod tools. In fact, the "tommy_9mm_sten_gun_mp" file is in the AEF folder, with the grease gun, because they forgot to change the folder when they copied it.

wait new version of an existing weapon can be made???
24 Jan 2020, 09:08 AM
#142
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



From the original changelog:

Gives the squad 2 Thompson SMGs and arms the rest with Sten Guns and No.77 White Phosphorous Grenades, and removes their Out-of-Cover penalties; Sten Guns use Assault Engineer Grease Gun stats.

Their identical stats can be seen in the mod tools. In fact, the "tommy_9mm_sten_gun_mp" file is in the AEF folder, with the grease gun, because they forgot to change the folder when they copied it.

I really hope your right about that. otherwise it's dum.
24 Jan 2020, 09:45 AM
#143
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 421 | Subs: 2

I've said this a few times before, but I'll throw it out again: Soviet Mobilized Reserves only needs to lose the 7th man while keeping everything else to be balanced.

This has several positive effects:

1) No more one-shot volley. 7*12=84 damage. IIRC one-shot volleys were being removed from the game wherever possible. Why should Soviets be special snowflakes?
2) 14.3% less damage and 14.3% less survivability. This tones down the raw power significantly without sacrificing any of the amazing utility benefits conscripts need.
3) The removal of the sergeant model. This model is not only historically innacurate (shoulder boards are far, FAR past 1945), but also has no winter model, and is really deform-happy with team weapons.
4) Bolster on top of a 6-man squad plays even more into the stupid "sOvIeTs hAVe iNfiNte mEn" stereotype. Stereotypes should be avoided whenever possible to be fair to all parties.

If this strikes you as an over-nerf, feel free to tone the actual buff modifiers to hit the sweet spot if necessary. I, for one, would welcome the lowering of the benefits (alongside removal of the 7th man) in exchange for global upgrade + freed up weapon slot as an example.
24 Jan 2020, 10:10 AM
#144
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

can i ask why brits get a 0cp 280 mp squad with 82.5 dps???? while ost only get one with 51 dps????? what kind of retarded imbalance is this??? even cav rifles have less dps and still require 1 command points. WOW and ostheer receives a nerf of course. Like why do they get to have 0 cp 280mp units that are stronger than panzer grens.

New Fking ass tommies vs Pgrens:
EHP: 400 v 400
dps: 82.5 v 62
vet: +40% acc -29% ra v +40% acc -29% ra

What the fucking hell.


Do you know how DPS works? They don't do 82.5 DPS at all ranges. Pgrens are much more flexible with how little their dps drops off in comparison. They also turn into terminators at vet 3.

Assault Tommies have been in the game for months now and it's established that their pretty much balanced. If they need a delay in timing to pgren timing so be it.

But their stats are anything but OP, they get munched late game by vet axis elites.
24 Jan 2020, 10:27 AM
#145
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

can i ask why brits get a 0cp 280 mp squad with 82.5 dps???? while ost only get one with 51 dps????? what kind of retarded imbalance is this??? even cav rifles have less dps and still require 1 command points. WOW and ostheer receives a nerf of course. Like why do they get to have 0 cp 280mp units that are stronger than panzer grens.

New Fking ass tommies vs Pgrens:
EHP: 400 v 400
dps: 82.5 v 62
vet: +40% acc -29% ra v +40% acc -29% ra

What the fucking hell.


Where did you got that numbers from?
Because 5x13,4 is not 82,5.

New assault section is literally Assault Engineers with different upgrade.
24 Jan 2020, 10:35 AM
#146
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1001 | Subs: 2



This is why we cant have nice things...

Yes, the stens are a copy of assault engineer greaseguns. Yes, this was stated in the initial release notes for tommies. Yes, they are identical in combat stats to assault engineers at minute 0. Yes, thompson upgraded assault tommies have the same DPS as thompson upgraded cav rifles. No, assault engineers are not problematic right now. No, cav rifles are not problematic now.
24 Jan 2020, 10:40 AM
#147
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jan 2020, 09:45 AMKasarov
I've said this a few times before, but I'll throw it out again: Soviet Mobilized Reserves only needs to lose the 7th man while keeping everything else to be balanced.

This has several positive effects:

1) No more one-shot volley. 7*12=84 damage. IIRC one-shot volleys were being removed from the game wherever possible. Why should Soviets be special snowflakes?
2) 14.3% less damage and 14.3% less survivability. This tones down the raw power significantly without sacrificing any of the amazing utility benefits conscripts need.
3) The removal of the sergeant model. This model is not only historically innacurate (shoulder boards are far, FAR past 1945), but also has no winter model, and is really deform-happy with team weapons.
4) Bolster on top of a 6-man squad plays even more into the stupid "sOvIeTs hAVe iNfiNte mEn" stereotype. Stereotypes should be avoided whenever possible to be fair to all parties.

If this strikes you as an over-nerf, feel free to tone the actual buff modifiers to hit the sweet spot if necessary. I, for one, would welcome the lowering of the benefits (alongside removal of the 7th man) in exchange for global upgrade + freed up weapon slot as an example.


It boils down to "they will be too similar to Penals", basically cons are supposed to suck by design and with these changes it will probably turn into Penals 24/7 again.
24 Jan 2020, 10:43 AM
#148
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

If people are going to post misleading stats IMO the mods should clean it up.

The flame wars around balance patches is bad enough without people posting fake stats to whip everyone up. Just my two cents.

Also interesting how he missed the 1.0 target size and focused on vet bonuses. As if pgrens and new assault Tommies have the same base survivability... They don't
24 Jan 2020, 10:50 AM
#149
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

So is Ostheer getting any help or do we have to suffer again like between the Puma nerf and the May patch?
24 Jan 2020, 11:05 AM
#150
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1257

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jan 2020, 09:45 AMKasarov
I've said this a few times before, but I'll throw it out again: Soviet Mobilized Reserves only needs to lose the 7th man while keeping everything else to be balanced.

This has several positive effects:

1) No more one-shot volley. 7*12=84 damage. IIRC one-shot volleys were being removed from the game wherever possible. Why should Soviets be special snowflakes?
2) 14.3% less damage and 14.3% less survivability. This tones down the raw power significantly without sacrificing any of the amazing utility benefits conscripts need.
3) The removal of the sergeant model. This model is not only historically innacurate (shoulder boards are far, FAR past 1945), but also has no winter model, and is really deform-happy with team weapons.
4) Bolster on top of a 6-man squad plays even more into the stupid "sOvIeTs hAVe iNfiNte mEn" stereotype. Stereotypes should be avoided whenever possible to be fair to all parties.

If this strikes you as an over-nerf, feel free to tone the actual buff modifiers to hit the sweet spot if necessary. I, for one, would welcome the lowering of the benefits (alongside removal of the 7th man) in exchange for global upgrade + freed up weapon slot as an example.


Cons lacked scaling for their utility outside the vet buffs for at nade and molly.

Soviets are the faction with the least healing and reinforcing options. 7th man fixes this via merge imo. Giving staying power wich they other wise lack comparetivly. Now cons will be as intended. Able to outlast the enemy and keep other inf squads on the field even in late game with less risk of loosing the squad via merge.

Soviets only also lack a nade and ai upgrade non doc. And cons wont be killing a model in 1 volley at range save for some extreme rng. This will be in close range mostly by far. So hardly any snowflaking here.since they lack nades and upgrrades nondoc 6 and 7th man sqauds balance it out.

I think the change for cons is solid. Maybe make it slightly cheaper per squad.
24 Jan 2020, 11:17 AM
#151
avatar of SunTzu

Posts: 67

Can anyone tell me why OST in the patch did not receive any changes? And a faction that needs buffs ...
24 Jan 2020, 11:55 AM
#152
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1201

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jan 2020, 11:17 AMSunTzu
Can anyone tell me why OST in the patch did not receive any changes? And a faction that needs buffs ...
dude this is 1.0 patch version chillout im sure they will buff wermaht
24 Jan 2020, 12:30 PM
#153
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 838 | Subs: 1

dude this is 1.0 patch version chillout im sure they will buff wermaht


I hope / think so too but players can only respond to the released patch notes.
24 Jan 2020, 12:46 PM
#154
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 366

The sturmtiger grenade passive is quite neat, its can act like a lazer and demolish infantry which honestly, would finish off any infantry caught in its blast. I do like it, really helps.

Assault section:In game I im still unsure if they might get too powerful later in the game. One thing for sure their grenades need to share cooldown.

The air landing officer is very very useful. I mean recon and light gammon bomb is great, I see the heavy weapon proficiency has been removed but they dont need it. However some people may disagree with me but I do feel commandos might be sort of overlapped. The cost of the officer squad and its reinforcement cost being 22mp, commandos are too expensive (35 mp) and honestly, despite their elite camo it still quite difficult to pull ambushes off considering you have to get into hugging range. Entirely my opinion.

Britt medics take way way way too long to build, I think it takes about 45 seconds.

Smoke barrage is a big plus.

24 Jan 2020, 13:04 PM
#155
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jan 2020, 11:17 AMSunTzu
Can anyone tell me why OST in the patch did not receive any changes? And a faction that needs buffs ...


I would say Ost UKF and USF and okw are mostly fine now. Soviets need some small nerfs to T70 vet and 7man con (focus on small because old cons lategame were target practice for axis inf) because their late game is just bullying everyone. Let's see how the patch plays out in testing and then you can isolate whatever needs changing. The heavy meta has really messed up a lot of the traditional late game builds, and mostly benefitted Sov and OKW.

It will be nice to see a return to medium tanks, and medium play is arguably ostheers territory as their T3 is so solid.
24 Jan 2020, 13:21 PM
#156
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jan 2020, 10:27 AMKatitof


Where did you got that numbers from?
Because 5x13,4 is not 82,5.

New assault section is literally Assault Engineers with different upgrade.

Yeah sorry I totally forgot the tommy_sten_smg_mp
24 Jan 2020, 13:23 PM
#157
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



Do you know how DPS works? They don't do 82.5 DPS at all ranges. Pgrens are much more flexible with how little their dps drops off in comparison. They also turn into terminators at vet 3.

Assault Tommies have been in the game for months now and it's established that their pretty much balanced. If they need a delay in timing to pgren timing so be it.

But their stats are anything but OP, they get munched late game by vet axis elites.

yes i and everyone knows how dps works m8. Boy if you think the dps of pg's drop little than you have no idea how little bar or fg42's dps drops with range.
24 Jan 2020, 13:30 PM
#158
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563


This is why we cant have nice things...

Yes, the stens are a copy of assault engineer greaseguns. Yes, this was stated in the initial release notes for tommies. Yes, they are identical in combat stats to assault engineers at minute 0. Yes, thompson upgraded assault tommies have the same DPS as thompson upgraded cav rifles. No, assault engineers are not problematic right now. No, cav rifles are not problematic now.

When did i say can rifles were problematic. The truth is i was severely wrong on what weapon they use, and I am ashamed and sorry.
However here is the thing section are like volks(now more so ok in attack and strong in defense) so the price of ass sections should be like sturms or even penals.
24 Jan 2020, 13:43 PM
#159
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 320

All the changes are promising. I still think that For Mother Russia will be OP, especially with Penals who will run and gun wipe squads on retreat. +50% accy bonus is no joke. Other than that all the changes are good.
24 Jan 2020, 13:48 PM
#160
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1



SU



I pointed the SVT thing out weeks ago with an own replay uploaded here showcasing a number of tests between STG Volks and SVT Cons.

SVT Cons beat STG Volks by a big margin while costing less, having merge and urra. It's totally unbalanced and should not be implemented like this. No one asked for terminator Cons, all people wanted is that Cons become viable overall. Now we have the 7 man upgrade that gave them a triple buff (MP, cover bonus, extra man) and the SVT upgrade that turns them into Volks on steroids.

I mean surely the SVT upgrade wasn't meant to make them way better than STG Volks? I would suggest Cons picking up 3 SVTs instead of 4 and see how that changes things.
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