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COH2 winter balance mod - discussion

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3 Feb 2020, 06:17 AM
#581
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2020, 22:29 PMVipper

Sprint and flamers was tried and was broken with Penals...

All they need is a redistribution of their RA.
I say make their base RA 0.91(current 0.95)
let vet give 0.9(current 0.935)
let vet3 give 0.77(current 0.71)
end result 0.63063 Target size vs old 0.6306575(I doubt that beyond 5th decimal point matters very much)
And with 6th man:
0.5990985 vs old 0.599124625 Target size (again, I doubt that beyond 3rd decimal point matters very much)
This will ass grens much easier to use early on while still retaining their current vet3 performance.

3 Feb 2020, 10:25 AM
#582
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

So when’s the next iteration dropping? Should be interesting to see the Ostheer changes.
3 Feb 2020, 11:42 AM
#583
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1


All they need is a redistribution of their RA.
I say make their base RA 0.91(current 0.95)


Allow me to remind you that ass sections start with RA = 1.
3 Feb 2020, 12:12 PM
#584
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



Allow me to remind you that ass sections start with RA = 1.

allow me to remind you ass section start with 66 dps where ass grens start with 51 (30% difference).
3 Feb 2020, 12:25 PM
#585
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

allow me to remind you ass section start with 66 dps where ass grens start with 51 (30% difference).


Assgrens have sprint to get into range quicker and take less damage on approach.
Assault Sections / Engineers can't use their higher maximum DPS if they drop more models on approach.
3 Feb 2020, 12:38 PM
#586
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



Assgrens have sprint to get into range quicker and take less damage on approach.
Assault Sections / Engineers can't use their higher maximum DPS if they drop more models on approach.

Riflemen Has a RA value 0.97 and neither grens/volks from behind heavy cover can drop models from them when charge through neutral cover.
Let me put it to you this way a 3 man ass section/engi has a 40 dps grens have 23(17.5 at range 10) dps. Unless your remaining 3 ass sections/engies have less then 170 hp when they get to that range they are winning.
You don't you test and find out if ass section get cut down by vet0 unupgraded grens/volks first before saying that.
3 Feb 2020, 13:13 PM
#587
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

You don't you test and find out if ass section get cut down by vet0 unupgraded grens/volks first before saying that.


Sure no problem.





Against Volks/Grens, Assault Sections generally drop at least 1 model before getting into their 10 effective range;
Against out of cover IS (somewhat similar DPS to Grens/Volks), Assault Grenadiers using sprint generally do not drop a model before getting into their 10 effective range.
3 Feb 2020, 13:35 PM
#588
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



Sure no problem.





Against Volks/Grens, Assault Sections generally drop at least 1 model before getting into their 10 effective range;
Against out of cover IS (somewhat similar DPS to Grens/Volks), Assault Grenadiers using sprint generally do not drop a model before getting into their 10 effective range.

But still asking to pay munis to something same costing unit can do hilarious.
Any way they kinda need that base RA to closer to 0.9 also vet should also give them a little extra than what it does now. They simply can't charge into Rifles and cause model drops at vet0 5 man. Penals are a different story though. They cost more And them being able to cut down ass grens won't be a problem since they can do that to more durable pgrens.
3 Feb 2020, 17:51 PM
#589
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772

Assgrens cost like 28mp (or was it 27mp?) to reinforce and have excellent RA, you can't give them a weapon that allows them to sit back at mid range and deal out tons of damage.

That and STG's are already overrepresented in this game.

volksgren stgs is like 2 times weaker then the pgren ones and late game pgrens are on the edge of useful, even with their excellent RA (unless you give them shreks or g43s). So I personally don't see an issue here. If the 26mp per model is too low, it is not unprecedented to change MP reinforcement cost after an upgrade (e.g. conscripts).
About RA, a lot of 28mp (e.g. guards, paras) units while having higher RA (towards 1.0) also have access from decent (DP LMGs) to great weaponry (thompsons, .30 1919 LMGs).
3 Feb 2020, 17:57 PM
#590
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

...
That and STG's are already overrepresented in this game.

This is true for other weapons also like the Thompson.

Imo one could make some weapon upgrades not actually provide a "new" weapon. It can be called "extensive weapon training" or something and the upgrade would simply be an upgrade on the current weapon (probably increasing accuracy).
3 Feb 2020, 18:00 PM
#591
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Feb 2020, 17:57 PMVipper

This is true for other weapons also like the Thompson.

Imo one could make some weapon upgrades not actually provide a "new" weapon. It can be called "extensive weapon training" or something and the upgrade would simply be an upgrade on the current weapon (probably increasing accuracy).

Ahhh... ass grens packin 5 stromtrooper mp40's. That'd be the dream.
3 Feb 2020, 18:02 PM
#592
avatar of addvaluejack

Posts: 261



Allow me to remind you that ass sections start with RA = 1.

Doesn't the "in cover" bonus give 0.1 RA reduction?
3 Feb 2020, 18:13 PM
#593
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1


Doesn't the "in cover" bonus give 0.1 RA reduction?


I dont think so, ass sections no longer share cover mechanic with normal sections.
3 Feb 2020, 18:40 PM
#594
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3


volksgren stgs is like 2 times weaker then the pgren ones and late game pgrens are on the edge of useful, even with their excellent RA (unless you give them shreks or g43s). So I personally don't see an issue here. If the 26mp per model is too low, it is not unprecedented to change MP reinforcement cost after an upgrade (e.g. conscripts).
About RA, a lot of 28mp (e.g. guards, paras) units while having higher RA (towards 1.0) also have access from decent (DP LMGs) to great weaponry (thompsons, .30 1919 LMGs).


Then compare those STG Assault Grenadiers with STG Volks:

- 5 stg's vs 3 kars + 2 stg's
- 0,63 RA at vet 3 vs 0,77 RA at vet 3
- 28 mp vs 25 mp reinforcement cost
- 280/60 cost vs 260/60 cost

You'd have elite infantry performance at mainline infantry cost. The only way to remedy that with their current design would be by raising the upgrade and reinforcement cost allot, which kinda shows they're not the right unit to make this change to.
3 Feb 2020, 18:51 PM
#595
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563


Doesn't the "in cover" bonus give 0.1 RA reduction?

nope it's .89 i think. Now it's less.
3 Feb 2020, 20:42 PM
#596
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772



Then compare those STG Assault Grenadiers with STG Volks:

- 5 stg's vs 3 kars + 2 stg's
- 0,63 RA at vet 3 vs 0,77 RA at vet 3
- 28 mp vs 25 mp reinforcement cost
- 280/60 cost vs 260/60 cost

You'd have elite infantry performance at mainline infantry cost. The only way to remedy that with their current design would be by raising the upgrade and reinforcement cost allot, which kinda shows they're not the right unit to make this change to.

Is 0.61 is the stat with the officer (it gives +5%) or without it? I thought Assgrens had around 0.68.
26 MP reinforcement cost. With STGs it can be increased to 28.
Since you get more STGs, the muni price can be increased. Also the timing of an upgrade is important. You get Volk STGs after first battlegroup deployment, while with assgrens you get the upgrade pretty much in late game (as with the officer).
4 Feb 2020, 02:33 AM
#597
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Version 1.1 Changes


Heavy Tanks


Pershing, KV-2, IS-2, Tiger
  • CP requirement from 11 to 12
  • Reverted previous tech requirements from version 1.0

Ostheer



Tech Changes

Sentiment suggests that Ostheer tier 4 is too prohibitive to use. In order to facilitate an easier transition for Ostheer T3 to T4 builds, we have implemented the following:
  • Battlephase 2 tech from 90 fuel to 105 fuel
  • Battlephase 3 tech from 25 fuel to 35
  • Support Armour Korp (T3) no longer has a fuel cost
  • Heavy Panzer Korp (T4) building no longer has a fuel cost

XP values have been adjusted accordingly.

Credit to Derbyhat AKA Jibberjabber for originally proposing this change.

Grenadiers
  • Reinforce cost from 30 to 28

Pak 40
  • Horizontal tracking speed from 12 to 14

Brummbar
  • Armour from 240 to 260

Panzerfaust - all variants, including OKW
The speed of the Panzerfaust projectiles being lowered as an attempt to remove the issue of Panzerfausts occasionally missing their targets.
  • Projectile speed from 55 to 25

Brits


HQ Glider
  • Cost from 450 to 390
  • Forward HQ Retreat Point and Medics must now be researched for 150 manpower.

Airlanding Officer
The officer is having the cost of his recon run increased to match his counterpart, the USF Major.
  • Recon run cost from 35 to 50

Soviets


ZiS-3/SU-76 Barrage
This change puts the barrage from ZiS-3 weapons inline with other direct-fire weapons and mortars that receive penalties when striking units in heavy cover.
  • Heavy cover damage modifier from 1 to 0.5

Airborne Weapon Crate Drop
  • Price from 45 to 60

OKDubz


Sturmtiger
  • Grenade deflection damage removed

Bug Fixes
  • Airlanding Officer should now be able to pick up bren guns.
  • Airlanding Officer reinforce cost fixed.
  • Fixed Infantry Section cost on reinforce; should now be back to 270/28
  • Fixed an issue where the British medic build time was too long at 45s; now is 21
4 Feb 2020, 02:35 AM
#598
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 784

Wow, interesting gren buff
4 Feb 2020, 02:36 AM
#599
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

I'm not sure how I feel about nerfing the SU-76. I get that it's a standardisation, but that unit's hardly meta.

Ostheer changes are pretty tame so far. It's definitely a worthwhile edit, but I suspect there's more to come. I may be underestimating the impact of the Grenadier change.

As for the Brummbar, has the mod team considered giving it the KV-2 treatement and accelerating the projectile? It currently needs manual targeting with Attack Ground. If it was faster, that wouldn't be the case.
4 Feb 2020, 02:54 AM
#600
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

British HQ glider being 150 mp upgrade for both retreat point and medics is underpriced IMO, should be at least 250 mp.

But also HQ glider should be repairable.
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