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COH2 winter balance mod - discussion

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23 Jan 2020, 18:25 PM
#1
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2135 | Subs: 1

Moderator message: This thread will be watched closer than normal by the mod team for anything deemed unconstructive to the discussing of the new balance mod. If you don't want your posts invised, keep it on topic and take your back and fourths to PMs. Thank you :)


https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/comment/287235#Comment_287235

Winter Balance Preview Mod

Download the mod here: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1976938113

Version 1.1




Heavy Tanks

Pershing, KV-2, IS-2, Tiger

CP requirement from 11 to 12
Reverted previous tech requirements from version 1.0

Ostheer

Tech Changes

Sentiment suggests that Ostheer tier 4 is too prohibitive to use. In order to facilitate an easier transition for Ostheer T3 to T4 builds, we have implemented the following:

Battlephase 2 tech from 90 fuel to 105 fuel
Battlephase 3 tech from 25 fuel to 35
Support Armour Korp (T3) no longer has a fuel cost
Heavy Panzer Korp (T4) building no longer has a fuel cost
XP values have been adjusted accordingly.

Credit to Derbyhat AKA Jibberjabber for originally proposing this change.

Grenadiers

Reinforce cost from 30 to 28

Pak 40

Horizontal tracking speed from 12 to 14

Brummbar

Armour from 240 to 260

Panzerfaust - all variants, including OKW

The speed of the Panzerfaust projectiles being lowered as an attempt to remove the issue of Panzerfausts occasionally missing their targets.

Projectile speed from 55 to 25

Brits

HQ Glider

Cost from 450 to 390
Forward HQ Retreat Point and Medics must now be researched for 150 manpower.

Airlanding Officer

The officer is having the cost of his recon run increased to match his counterpart, the USF Major.

Recon run cost from 35 to 50

Soviets

ZiS-3/SU-76 Barrage

This change puts the barrage from ZiS-3 weapons inline with other direct-fire weapons and mortars that receive penalties when striking units in heavy cover.

Heavy cover damage modifier from 1 to 0.5

Airborne Weapon Crate Drop

Price from 45 to 60

OKDubz

Sturmtiger

Grenade deflection damage removed

Bug Fixes

Airlanding Officer should now be able to pick up bren guns.
Airlanding Officer reinforce cost fixed.
Fixed Infantry Section cost on reinforce; should now be back to 270/28
Fixed an issue where the British medic build time was too long at 45s; now is 21
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Version 1.0




23 Jan 2020, 18:31 PM
#2
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 315 | Subs: 1

What a complete joke.
23 Jan 2020, 18:38 PM
#4
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2478 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2020, 18:31 PMFarlion
What a complete joke.


Care to specify? I see mostly good stuff with a few things I don't understand (grenade cost reduction is super random)

I'm just happy to not be fighting heavy tanks in 8/10 matches


- Pershing, Tiger and IS2 needed some sort of AOE nerf because they are just too good against infantry, wiping squads too frequently.


See I disagree. I like their performance being that good, they are just too easy to get/replace. Not so much anymore
23 Jan 2020, 18:43 PM
#5
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 315 | Subs: 1



Care to specify? I see mostly good stuff with a few things I don't understand (grenade cost reduction is super random)


Yeah, I'll post a detailed a breakdown later, but having seen these notes I am extremely worried.

I get the Brits needed something to make them viable in 1v1, but these changes aren't going to do that. You can't just improve Tommy moving accuracy by almost half and not take anything from them. All that will do is bring back the old Tommy death blob. Then there's stuff like a UC buff that's likewise uncalled for.

The heavy changes are good, as is the conscript nerf. The rest is highly suspect at best.
23 Jan 2020, 18:45 PM
#6
avatar of eVolm0rtie

Posts: 8

Seems like pretty good changes so far.

But if they have the stomach for such big changes to the brits, why not just move royal engineers to T0 and have the brits start with an engineer like every other faction and move their snare to sections. Is asymmetrical balance really a good enough reason to keep this failed experiment alive any longer?
23 Jan 2020, 18:49 PM
#7
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 997 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2020, 18:43 PMFarlion

You can't just improve Tommy moving accuracy by almost half and not take anything from them. All that will do is bring back the old Tommy death blob.

At what point did tommy death blobbing ever involve firing on the move? Like LMG blobs, tommy blobs were only ever about walking into range, then creating a stationary firing line at max range, right?
23 Jan 2020, 18:54 PM
#8
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2135 | Subs: 1

Mod Edit: Original first post comment done by blvckdream
What I don't like:

- no nerfs for Jackson, Scott, Pak Howitzer

- no nerfs for Soviet airborne: SVT + Il2 Rocket strafe

- Ostheer Tiger still needs no buildings while OKW Tiger, Pershing and IS2 does. Double-standards for no reason.

- USF grenade upgrade cheaper. Why? No one asked for that.

- USF butterfly bombs need to be more expensive for what they do. Adding a bit of delay is not enough.

-KV2 veterancy buff for no reason. No one asked for that. The KV2 was good enough as it was.

- Pershing, Tiger and IS2 needed some sort of AOE nerf because they are just too good against infantry, wiping squads too frequently.

- locking OKW tiger behind all SWS means it will come WAY later than the IS2/KV2 for no apparent reason




I'm just happy to not be fighting heavy tanks in 8/10 matches


I wouldn't be so sure about that. I often have around 11 CP anyway when I have the 230 fuel for the tiger. It will only delay the Tigers in one-sided games where one side gets stomped and the other has a big resource income.
23 Jan 2020, 19:00 PM
#9
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 315 | Subs: 1


At what point did tommy death blobbing ever involve firing on the move? Like LMG blobs, tommy blobs were only ever about walking into range, then creating a stationary firing line at max range, right?


And now we'll have non-lmg Tommy death blobs that fire on the move. I like a lot of what the balance team has done over the last years, but this is a catastrophe.

In recent months there were numerous threads on what to do with the Brits, and those had some great ideas. But the general consensus was to do anything that does not involve buffing Tommies or the UC. This patch does both.

Why did people not want section buffs? Because we know how this story ends. The last time the balance team tried to rework sections it resulted in the Tommy death blob that was nerfed last year. And at least in that rework, when they made sections better out of cover but slightly worse in cover, they took something away from them. This patch literally only buffs sections to such a degree that it can only have one outcome.
23 Jan 2020, 19:02 PM
#10
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2802

Great patch. I’m gonna try and get some 1v1s in to test. A few thoughts:

- Falls lose their fasut. Okay, that’s fine. This however nerfs an already UP doctrine. Is there a chance to rework the heavy fortifications ability into a Luft Pioneers call in squad?

- Sturmtiger needs better rotation, takes forever to use offensively with the awful pathfinding.

- Reworking AirGuards into Stormtroopers is a good change, but if that’s the case remove the 3 DP28s upgrade.

- Any chance we get the M36 armour nerf in the preview?

- Cromwell needs some love, that thing dows not work as it should and it’s bringing down the faction with it.
23 Jan 2020, 19:02 PM
#11
avatar of vio88mm

Posts: 42

Indeed the kv2 vet bonus were not needed.

But Jagdtiger needs to come way early, 14 CP is absurd, the fuel changes are welcome though.

23 Jan 2020, 19:12 PM
#12
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 997 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2020, 19:00 PMFarlion


And now we'll have non-lmg Tommy death blobs that fire on the move. I like a lot of what the balance team has done over the last years, but this is a catastrophe.

But why would anyone close in to a less favorable range? Tommy blobbing is effective because they have high long range dps and can create a firing line. Moving accuracy has nothing to do with that aspect.

Is your argument seriously that we're going to have tommy blobs close into a range where they have similar* model DPS to volks? Because at that point, the tommy blob is just a worse volks/riflemen blob.
23 Jan 2020, 19:14 PM
#13
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2135 | Subs: 1

Why would you make OKW Tiger locked behind all trucks when 4 SWS trucks + tech are WAY more expensive than for example all 4 Soviet tech buildings?

Meanwhile, Ost Tiger is only 40+90+25 for no apparent reason??

OKW fuel until Tiger would be unlocked---> 250 fuel (including the fuel for healing upgrade)

Soviet fuel until IS2 would be unlocked ---> 195 fuel
23 Jan 2020, 19:18 PM
#14
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1151

So they are going to simply ignore the abysmal state of Ostheer but give us Brit buffs (which were needed). Call me surprised.

Looking forward to play the absolute shitshow Ost is at the moment... but now with the additional fun of Tommie blobs running up my MG42 and a Tiger crutch that arrives later.
23 Jan 2020, 19:19 PM
#15
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2478 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2020, 19:00 PMFarlion

And now we'll have non-lmg Tommy death blobs that fire on the move. I like a lot of what the balance team has done over the last years, but this is a catastrophe.


Catastrophe? First of all it's the first version of a preview, so stop exaggerating. Secondly, now they have the same moving modifier as the other mainlines, except Riflemen who still have it better


I wouldn't be so sure about that. I often have around 11 CP anyway when I have the 230 fuel for the tiger. It will only delay the Tigers in one-sided games where one side gets stomped and the other has a big resource income.


That's a fair point. I guess I'm most happy about the 3 minute delay after destruction. As a mostly 2v2 player I see too much instant replacement in the long matches
23 Jan 2020, 19:23 PM
#16
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 899

General thoughts:
These notes seem like a fraction of what's needed. They're a step in the right direction (and that's always appreciated), but they will in no way address the stale meta that's evolved in the game (60 range TDs, OKW Mech > Med, OST weakness, Sov domination). If this is a "part 1" patch, then that's fine, but I really hope there's more to come; we're missing changes to address the core issues in the current game.


For USF, the current state of the M36 has been heavily criticized for months, if not longer, and there's nothing to address either it, nor its counters. Similarly, the changes to the Scott/Pak Howie made them RNG-wiping machines (I guess that's better than consistent wiping machines); they're still annoying to deal with, but now they;re also annoying to use (due to the RNG).

OKW's tech' situation is still pretty btale, with Mech massively outshining Med in pretty much every way, especially with the LeiG flame nerfs (that was one major reason to go med). Copying USF's "vehicle unlock" system might be a good idea, whereby the med truck's healing/FRP becomes free, but you need to pay to gain access to the Flak-HT and IRHT.

OST is still going to get demolished in most situations, thanks to Grens generally under-performing (or just being squishy) especially in the late-game. Additionally, UKF has gained some close-range squads as well as non-doc off-map smoke, which means they'll also have a better time against OST. T4 is also still in a really bad place, where it's much more viable to go for T3 and call-ins.

Sov changes seem decent, but as we saw at WCS, they're very powerful. I'm not entirely sure on the changes to 7-man-cons, but it could be a step in the right direction. Adjustments to the T70 are absolutely needed, since it's such a dominant unit. Additionally, as it's been pointed out before, Sov really doesn't have a weakness currently. Their infantry is exceptional, especially with upgrades, and their vehicles have incredible price/performance, which only goes up with excellent call-in heavies. The IS2 armor nerf might help this a bit, but it won't fix the core issue. If Sov's infantry is this good, it needs to be possible to inflict serious MP bleed - but its not (especially against cons) due to the reinforce costs and very fast vet gain. Similarly, due to their cost, massing tanks is also incredibly viable, since they're (mostly) good against both tanks and infantry.

UKF is still going to be pretty gimmicky, but at this point I'm not sure what can be done.

As I said, I (mostly) like what's being done here, but I think that a lot more is needed. Hopefully we'll get more changes in a future version of the patch, or other patches in the near future (spring balance patch?). Either way, I still appreciate the work the balance team is doing.


Thoughts on current notes:

General


On-map arty
Why are we lowering on-map arty pop to 13? I don't feel like this was needed, especially in team games.

Heavy tanks
Generally a good change, but I don't think "requires all buildings" is the right idea - at least not if OST doesn't need it.
I would have also liked to have seen the ranges standardized to 45, with their range vet bonuses removed, just for consistency.


UKF

Infantry sections
These changes are designed to make them less difficult to use in the open and on the move, while keeping their overall power level in a non-oppressive state.

Then why are these only buffs? If you want to keep the overall strength the same, and also increase out-of-cover strength, then in-cover strength needs to go down. Otherwise the overall strength goes up. Late game double-bren blobs are still quite oppressive, and these changes will only increase that.

Assault officer
This looks pretty interesting, and could fill a pretty important role. It'll be interesting to see how effective this is, though, since it's limited to one.

UC-Wasp Upgrade
This change is a bit risky. Increasing the armor vs. MGs makes sense, but it'll also make it more resistant to grens/volks/etc. Early game T0 vehicles should be pretty vulnerable, even if you invest in upgrades.

British Medic Squad
Is this a mobile healing squad, or an HQ upgrade like the Sov medics? If it's the former, that's going to be overpowered just due to utility, let alone if the heal rate is high (or AoE based). If it's the later, it's a good addition, but the price is too low (30mp isn't equal to 60 muni for OST, for example).

HQ Glider
So for 450mp, you get: 3x Medics, a free FRP, a squad of commandos, AND the ability to reinforce? That's WAY too much.

All other UKF changes seem good.


Sov

Cons
The major problem (IMO) was the near zero MP bleed you could inflict, and their general survivability - not their in cover DPS.

All other Sov changes seem good.


USF

Grenade Package unlock
Not sure if this was needed, but it could work, I suppose.

All other USF changes seem good.


OKW

Sturmtiger
The main issue with this thing is that it never hits anything once there's craters on the map (i.e. late-game... when it becomes available). The changes are nice, but I don't think they'll drag this unit up from being the worst unit in the game.

JT
Not sure why a price reduction was needed - especially a 5% fuel cost reduction.

Falls
Faust is finally removed - I think these will finally be in a good place. Hopefully we can all move on now.

All other OKW changes seem good.


OST


Not much here... but I guess the changes are fine.
23 Jan 2020, 19:26 PM
#17
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 933

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2020, 19:18 PMButcher
So they are going to simply ignore the abysmal state of Ostheer but give us Brit buffs (which were needed). Call me surprised.

Looking forward to play the absolute shitshow Ost is at the moment... but now with the additional fun of Tommie blobs running up my MG42 and a Tiger crutch that arrives later.
Haha, exactly my thoughts.

It's kind of obvious they don't like Germans. They buff the KV-2 (which wasn't even bad) but don't touch the performance of the trash Jagdtiger (fuel is a non issue at the state of the game it arrives). No buffs to the King Tiger either. No buffs for Ostheer end of tech either. Fuck Germans. Not allowed to perform.
23 Jan 2020, 19:29 PM
#18
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2802

No Brummbar change. Can we get an explanation on that?
23 Jan 2020, 19:31 PM
#19
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2478 | Subs: 1


- Falls lose their fasut. Okay, that’s fine. This however nerfs an already UP doctrine. Is there a chance to rework the heavy fortifications ability into a Luft Pioneers call in squad?


Now you're speaking my language. Love the idea but I feel like they won't add a new squad to the game at this point
23 Jan 2020, 19:32 PM
#20
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2802



Now you're speaking my language. Love the idea but I feel like they won't add a new squad to the game at this point


They literally just added assault officer to the platoon HQ though. :D
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