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A wild idea on OST T4

19 Jan 2020, 18:25 PM
#1
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 708

As the title says I just had a 'wild idea'. Note ahead: I assume this change is too far fetched to implement it, but I still would like to know what people think of it.

Make OST T3 and T4 mutually exclusive.
Then lower the tech cost of T4 by a bit of fuel. Maybe also T3.

These two buildings have a huge overlap and basically offer both an AI, an AT specialist and a wild card vehicle. But the faction would not lack too much apart from maybe some AA if it goes T4.

T3 will be the more aggressive playstyle trading a short midgame bonus for less power in the late game. t4 is basically the other way around. Delay your vehicle for a more powerful late game unit.

Can't talk too much about 1v1, but in team games I sometimes played T4 only. You don't necessarily need a medium tank, AA can be done by the classic 'lul I shoot doen planes 222' (although it's quite whacky) and getting a Panther or Brummbär ealier is quite an advantage.

I'm not saying that this change is better than a slight T4 tech buff, that I fully support it or whatever. I just want to throw it out there into a 'what if' scenario. What if Relic had designed OST in that way, would we maybe be better off.
19 Jan 2020, 18:48 PM
#2
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 691

As the title says I just had a 'wild idea'. Note ahead: I assume this change is too far fetched to implement it, but I still would like to know what people think of it.

Make OST T3 and T4 mutually exclusive.
Then lower the tech cost of T4 by a bit of fuel. Maybe also T3.

These two buildings have a huge overlap and basically offer both an AI, an AT specialist and a wild card vehicle. But the faction would not lack too much apart from maybe some AA if it goes T4.

T3 will be the more aggressive playstyle trading a short midgame bonus for less power in the late game. t4 is basically the other way around. Delay your vehicle for a more powerful late game unit.

Can't talk too much about 1v1, but in team games I sometimes played T4 only. You don't necessarily need a medium tank, AA can be done by the classic 'lul I shoot doen planes 222' (although it's quite whacky) and getting a Panther or Brummbär ealier is quite an advantage.

I'm not saying that this change is better than a slight T4 tech buff, that I fully support it or whatever. I just want to throw it out there into a 'what if' scenario. What if Relic had designed OST in that way, would we maybe be better off.

I'm pretty sure this will only make things worse for T4. If T3 is cheaper there would be no point in going T4 ever. T3 units are simply too cost effective and less risky even in team games. Would it not be better to make T4 units more suited for offense.
1. reduce the panthers hp to 800, increase armor to 290 , improve moving acc.
2. make brumbs bbb free but reduce it's standard range to 20-25.
3. give werfer more armor , 320 hp + an mg
19 Jan 2020, 18:51 PM
#3
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 182

OST is fine as is.
19 Jan 2020, 22:12 PM
#4
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 982

I would remove the T4 building and make the T4-upgrade the unlock of Panther, Brummbär and Panzerwerfer. Panther moves into HQ, PnzWerfer into T2 Brummbär into T3.

T2 gets blueprint of T3, T4 gets blueprint of T4.

Old blueprint of T2 can becomes a new commander-structure etc.


All over, T4 isn't needed as extra building.



Edit: You want to make Ost useful again? lol nerf Alliis non-brainer tactics, only spaming frontal and winning.
20 Jan 2020, 05:14 AM
#5
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 718

I'm pretty sure this will only make things worse for T4. If T3 is cheaper there would be no point in going T4 ever. T3 units are simply too cost effective and less risky even in team games. Would it not be better to make T4 units more suited for offense.
1. reduce the panthers hp to 800, increase armor to 290 , improve moving acc.
2. make brumbs bbb free but reduce it's standard range to 20-25.
3. give werfer more armor , 320 hp + an mg


Exactly this. The problem isn't the tech cost, it's the units within the tech-tier. In basically every game, having a Stug/Ostwind/P4 is just a better choice than spending more on a Brumm/Panther/PWerfer, even when you ignore the initial price difference (tech+building).

The brumm either needs to be buffed a significant amount, or made much cheaper; otherwise the Ostwind is simply a better choice against infantry blobs.

The panther needs a buff too, since it doesn't have the range or moving accuracy to chase down allied 60-range TDs; so it's much more cost efficient to get a bunch of STuGs instead (which have more range and DPS).

The PWerfer is only really viable against players using a lot of support weapons, or blobbing. A p4 or Ostwind is a better choice in a lot of cases. Note that this isn't because the PWerfer is bad (it's actually pretty good), it's just much more situational than a P4/Ostwind.
20 Jan 2020, 09:44 AM
#6
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7190 | Subs: 1

T4 lacks an all around vehicle and instead has expensive, high pop specialized vehicles so with changes going for T4 would leave vulnerable to certain type of units. One would have to rely on doctrinal units to fill the gap.
20 Jan 2020, 13:51 PM
#7
avatar of blancat

Posts: 693

ost T4 dont need buff

just there is no reason to use T4

Tiger can do all TD and AI, tanking

Why should OST player use T4 unit?

Tiger is got stronger because people was whining in the forum

As a result, the meta became simple, the balance between commanders was broken, and the game became boring

20 Jan 2020, 14:02 PM
#8
avatar of SunTzu

Posts: 57

OST is fine as is.

no
20 Jan 2020, 14:43 PM
#9
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 708

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jan 2020, 13:51 PMblancat
ost T4 dont need buff

just there is no reason to use T4

Tiger can do all TD and AI, tanking

Why should OST player use T4 unit?

Tiger is got stronger because people was whining in the forum

As a result, the meta became simple, the balance between commanders was broken, and the game became boring


While I agree that the Tiger might be a reason for rarely seeing T4, the Tiger got stronger because of a general and well needed heavy tank overhaul. Just like literally all other generalist heavies.

At the moment OST needs a T3 because they don't have a LV in the class of a Luchs. The gap between the 222 and a Panther is just too large to be feasable in many games, so OST needs a P4 or similars to keep the pace. Unfortunately thr T4 tech cost (BP plus building) is very expensive. Can't 100% recall what the cost was, but I think something like 40 fuel plus some MP. So if you want a Panther, Pwerder or Brummbär, Allies get a third of a medium while you just spend ressources. SOV get half a Katy for you just teching.

I think OST can rely on T3 with good micro, but T3 is at the moment NOT OP compared to other tiers of Allies. OST T4 just gives additional possibilities or heavier variants of units, but we rarely see it because Tiger and too high teching cost.
20 Jan 2020, 14:59 PM
#10
avatar of Latch

Posts: 519


OST T4 just gives additional possibilities or heavier variants of units


Exactly, I don't think its meant to be an every game choice otherwise to unlock Tiger you would have to build the tech building.

Brumbar and Pwerfer are very good against brits in the 1v1 scenario, its rare I see a P4 but again, thats down to the Tiger being OP but I dont imagine UKF is the reason that this topic is always floating about. Buff T4, you wipe Brits from the game as it currently is, it needs to be done carefully.
20 Jan 2020, 15:14 PM
#11
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 1706

People don’t even understand the main issue with T4 lol

What IS T4? It is a special vehicle tier, which you pay a premium in time and resources to reach, which gives you access to three units. All 3 of these units are very specific specialists which serve very niche roles. The Brummbar has been neutered to the point where it can only function as a spearhead assault vehicle against an opponent lacking in heavy duty Anti-Armour (For instance Brummbar will cream a soviet with a su76, T34/76 and 47mm AT, but will fail miserably against M1, Jackson and M4 USF player in 1v1.), the Panther as stated in the patch notes is geared towards countering Heavy tanks and the Panzerwerfer can be used to clear weapons teams. All 3 units are highly specialized and rarely needed.

Meanwhile T3 has a fantastic generalist medium tank, the Panzer IV F2, the Workhorse unit of the Ostheer, the Stug III G, a cheap and very reliable counter to light and medium armour, and the Ostwind, an AA platform that reliably counters infantry, light vehicles and aircraft.

There is not T3/T4 choice. T3 is the lifeline of the Ostheer faction, while T4 is a tier of niche specialists that you don’t always need.

It’s very simple, the T4 is cheap enough as is, it’s not a price problem. If the vehicles in it are not worth getting, either make them cheaper or expand their role.
20 Jan 2020, 15:19 PM
#12
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 691

People don’t even understand the main issue with T4 lol

What IS T4? It is a special vehicle tier, which you pay a premium in time and resources to reach, which gives you access to three units. All 3 of these units are very specific specialists which serve very niche roles. The Brummbar has been neutered to the point where it can only function as a spearhead assault vehicle against an opponent lacking in heavy duty Anti-Armour (For instance Brummbar will cream a soviet with a su76, T34/76 and 47mm AT, but will fail miserably against M1, Jackson and M4 USF player in 1v1.), the Panther as stated in the patch notes is geared towards countering Heavy tanks and the Panzerwerfer can be used to clear weapons teams. All 3 units are highly specialized and rarely needed.

Meanwhile T3 has a fantastic generalist medium tank, the Panzer IV F2, the Workhorse unit of the Ostheer, the Stug III G, a cheap and very reliable counter to light and medium armour, and the Ostwind, an AA platform that reliably counters infantry, light vehicles and aircraft.

There is not T3/T4 choice. T3 is the lifeline of the Ostheer faction, while T4 is a tier of niche specialists that you don’t always need.

It’s very simple, the T4 is cheap enough as is, it’s not a price problem. If the vehicles in it are not worth getting, either make them cheaper or expand their role.

I'm not buying it, that it's a luxury tier for ost m8. + most of these highly specialized units only do their jobs and not particularly well. And secondly the way ost was designed was to enable you to skip tiers and gain different advantages at the cost different disadvantages like wehrmacht from coh1. But that's not really the case.
20 Jan 2020, 17:28 PM
#13
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 918



Exactly this. The problem isn't the tech cost, it's the units within the tech-tier. In basically every game, having a Stug/Ostwind/P4 is just a better choice than spending more on a Brumm/Panther/PWerfer, even when you ignore the initial price difference (tech+building).

The brumm either needs to be buffed a significant amount, or made much cheaper; otherwise the Ostwind is simply a better choice against infantry blobs.

The panther needs a buff too, since it doesn't have the range or moving accuracy to chase down allied 60-range TDs; so it's much more cost efficient to get a bunch of STuGs instead (which have more range and DPS).

The PWerfer is only really viable against players using a lot of support weapons, or blobbing. A p4 or Ostwind is a better choice in a lot of cases. Note that this isn't because the PWerfer is bad (it's actually pretty good), it's just much more situational than a P4/Ostwind.


Basically their cost/performance are solely lacking after so much changes to Allies/Axis units.

I agree
20 Jan 2020, 19:04 PM
#14
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 457

The problem imo mostly is that callin heavies esp after the recent buffs come way to early, do a good both job in ai and at. While also being pretty durable and not as fast but not to slow either.

In ost and okw,s case the tigers are a far better option. It covers ai and at excelenty because its got a good rof and can take a beating. Not like an is2 can take a beating but still quite a lot.

Current ost t4 clings to the old design of beating ost before x minutes or you will need a miracle to win as allies. The limiting factor for t4 was that the units where very specialized and expensive unlike t3 units.

But making the panther a durable p4 clone but a weaker tiger is boring and nonsense. Making the panther next to durable and mobile with medium tank rof and td acc more accurate on the move so it can be much more effective vs its intended targets and its counters (the dedicated td,s) is also a bad idea. Imo the panther is the maxim of the axis. Any buff will make it problematic.

The current allied td,s came from the fact allies struggled greatly vs stock axis late game. Now with the buffs to heavies across factions in part because of the effective allied td,s allied td,s are neccecary even more.

Delay heavies, party undo acc/scatter or any rof buffs. Remove the arty from the tiger that can call it in. And start from there. T4 will probably get used more.
21 Jan 2020, 01:52 AM
#15
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 918

^ lol
So let's nerf axis because they are over performing now?

While im ok with 1cp later call in
Please let not disguise the fact tigers are a clutch unit for axis, especially wehr.

The bunch you wrote will not help T4 get used more.

And panther is maxim of axis?

Please stop this concerned trolling
21 Jan 2020, 02:32 AM
#16
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 457

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jan 2020, 01:52 AMmrgame2
^ lol
So let's nerf axis because they are over performing now?

While im ok with 1cp later call in
Please let not disguise the fact tigers are a clutch unit for axis, especially wehr.

The bunch you wrote will not help T4 get used more.

And panther is maxim of axis?

Please stop this concerned trolling


Would you support a maxim buff? I think it is not worth the 260mp plus tech you need to spend on it. Despite it coming early has 6 men with low reinforce cost. Its vet ability is lowsy its supression is low has a smaller arc and has an unfixable bug.

You as ost always up probably feel the panther is bad despite it being durable and fast with high pen high acc med tank rof and bigger range then other meds. Only its mov acc is not above other tanks and its ai is meh.

Also where did i say overpreforming? Please show me. Also the tiger atm is a very big reason t4 is unused. Dont even try to deney it. Why get a panther when a tiger is more cost effective and can fight both inf and tanks? Well genius?
21 Jan 2020, 02:48 AM
#17
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 918

What's there to upgrade maxim? It has been received useful buffs.

You didn't outright say overperform, but you want to stealth nerf, same meaning.

Tiger is preferred is as you and i said it. It is more cost effective and it is a clutch unit.

As i also said elsewhere, builing a stug/ostwind + tiger, should be about as cost efficient as allies t4 composition.

So there you have it, T4 axis is simply under performance for their costs.

I played it, i know
We seen it at high levels, it is clear
21 Jan 2020, 07:12 AM
#18
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 291

I just kind of wish the P4 in Strategic Reserves Doctrine became non-doctrinal but was tied to Tier 4 so the tier at least has a generalist medium to pair with the Panther/Brummbar especially if you want to skip Tier 3 and go T4 instead. Right now going Tier 2 into Tier 4 is impossible unless you have OKW players going Puma to help against vehicles. The ability in the commander could get replaced by something that would allow Ostheer to turn their P4 into the J Variant for 50 mp and 20 fuel like the Bulldozer for USF.
21 Jan 2020, 13:34 PM
#19
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 457

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jan 2020, 02:48 AMmrgame2
What's there to upgrade maxim? It has been received useful buffs.

You didn't outright say overperform, but you want to stealth nerf, same meaning.

Tiger is preferred is as you and i said it. It is more cost effective and it is a clutch unit.

As i also said elsewhere, builing a stug/ostwind + tiger, should be about as cost efficient as allies t4 composition.

So there you have it, T4 axis is simply under performance for their costs.

I played it, i know
We seen it at high levels, it is clear


The maxim can use a better actualy good vet ability. Or the current one needs to be made better.
The fact that it is the easiest to wipe frontaly despite being 6 men (cough deathloop cough) because it has a harder time supressing inf. And still costs 260mp excluding tech.

Please take of the tin foil hat. I said nerf heavies across the board. And start from there with t4. How and in what universe does that steathely say or signal "it over preforms"

So a crutch unit is good now somehow while the t70 wich also is a crutch is op?

All t4 suffers from imo is the overly potent td,s. But whom in turn are neccecary now more then ever with the current heavy meta and stock kt.
Fix heavies callin or stock by delaying them and kick the kt in a doctrine, nerf allied td pen acvordingly and or add deflection damage if possible. And i am convinced t4 will struggle a lot less. The panther can bounce shots again just as the brumbar. They wont be forced of within seconds of an engagement all the time because allied td,s wont nearly alway pen them.
Then when heavies finaly arrive they still have a shock impact but the opposing faction should be able to deal with it.

22 Jan 2020, 06:35 AM
#20
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 918

No you did not mention 60td nerf earlier and got my attention.

Anyway maxim is as good as can be for Soviet composition. Any buff to suppression, it becomes a 50cal, replacing it with vickers clone, it becomes .. a clone. Soviet doesn't need to play like wehr(some of you should be thankful). And if you get wiped frontally, you are doing something wrong.

Likewise wehr mg42 gets wiped when trying to reposition.

Of course we still haven't get into details about maxim/Vickers with cons merge or fact wehr grens are worst at flanking and shooting down weapon teams.

Yes maxim is great in 2v2 and above. Supplementary in 1v1. As good as it should be

As for t70 and tiger, big difference. Tiger is more like a crutch, a walking stick to help wehr. Fact is tiger only change is more reliable AI and comes early. So its counters are still the same. If it were op, we should seen higher axis/wehr win rates.

T70 in hands of pros is simply op against wehr 1v1, at least commonly agree here. Since im not pro or play 1v1, i didnt comment on t70 op. In 2v2, i don't find t70 as oppressive as shown.
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