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russian armor

Second G43 upgrade for Grenadier?

19 Jan 2020, 12:15 PM
#21
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 450



Actually the issue was no weapon upgrade, meaning if you had to rebuild a Conscript squad in the late game it would do absolutely nothing vs Veteran Axis infantry.


Yeah only for snaring would you rebuild them ever.
For any other thing outside certain doctrines they where a waste in late game when replaced.
19 Jan 2020, 12:18 PM
#22
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 450

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jan 2020, 11:38 AMVipper

1) We are not in 2016 and neither 7 men conscripts appeared in 2016
2) Check the patch change log and you will see that VG had to be nerfed via veterancy nerfs because they where OP even vs USF infantry hordes
3) My point is solid, 7 men conscripts where not "a reaction to lmg grens" even if you do not agree about Penals/ST44 Vgs.


If memory serves me right the penal buffs was a reaction to vg buff and maxim nerf. The op maxim back them kept volks in check. The maxim after its nerf became incapable of doing anything resembeling halting inf movement. Both cons and penals (wich to my recolection still where the 270mp up version) could not hope to fight volks esp after their stgs upgrade.
19 Jan 2020, 12:20 PM
#23
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 14277 | Subs: 7



If memory serves me right the penal buffs was a reaction to vg buff and maxim nerf. The op maxim back them kept volks in check. The maxim after its nerf became incapable of doing anything resembeling halting inf movement. Both cons and penals (wich to my recolection still where the 270mp up version) could not hope to fight volks esp after their stgs upgrade.

It was also in response to taking away penal flamer and giving them unique role in the army instead of stronger cons with no utility at all.
19 Jan 2020, 13:57 PM
#24
avatar of Kommandant_Omi

Posts: 20

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jan 2020, 00:06 AMVipper
It is time to stop buffng and start nerfing


we should be buffing more and nerfing less! still i dont agree with op :snfPeter:
19 Jan 2020, 15:13 PM
#25
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6612 | Subs: 1



If memory serves me right the penal buffs was a reaction to vg buff and maxim nerf. The op maxim back them kept volks in check. The maxim after its nerf became incapable of doing anything resembeling halting inf movement. Both cons and penals (wich to my recolection still where the 270mp up version) could not hope to fight volks esp after their stgs upgrade.


jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jan 2020, 12:20 PMKatitof

It was also in response to taking away penal flamer and giving them unique role in the army instead of stronger cons with no utility at all.


Both wrong.

Penals were reworked after been useless for 3 years (270mp with flamer). They were basically changed into stronger Rifles with flamers and oorah. And although the tier had 0 AT, Guards were cheap and strong enough to make the transition later.
On that same patch, OKW was reworked. Volks had their PS removed and given an STG and Faust instead.

Maxim spam would remain a strong option, specially against OKW, till they basically nerf them several times through different patches.

Current Penals with PTRS became a thing after they removed the flamer and they tried to make the tier to be something less reliant on cheese to work.
Sniper were reworked into 1 man on top of removing the whole stealth cheese mechanic, OKW was already given a snare to eventually deal with clowncar and Penals and Guards would see different nerfs till the version we have nowadays.


Conscripts were decent on 1v1 against OH and irrelevant against OKW PRE REWORK unless PPSH and spam was used.
Cons post OKW rework with STG Volks, were useless.

Funny enough, there was a Conscript change which made them more "reliable" by changing the damage profile of 16 to 12 (while retaining same DPS, same change as with IS) and giving them more power in the late game by buffing the vet. In combination with the muni increase on lolotovs and oorah, it was just a shift in power from early game to late game via vet.
This change didn't help at all against Volks in the midgame (power spike on STG).
What this changed produced was an improvement on a pocket strat with PPSH which was just better against OH (which later got nerfed by increasing the cost).

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jan 2020, 11:01 AMVipper
7 men conscript is NOT a reaction to LMG grenadiers. Conscript/Grenadiers balance was established years ago and it was working.
7 men conscripts are byproduct of Penal/St44 VG buffs and it currently OP.


7 men Cons are a byproduct of USF, UKF (which lead to changes and buffs to OH which in result change the dynamic with SOV) and OKW merely existing. Pre and post rework on whatever faction.

PD: the upgrade is on the OP side but nothing small nerfs/remove features might not fix.
19 Jan 2020, 15:14 PM
#26
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6612 | Subs: 1

OT: Disagree with OP suggestion.
19 Jan 2020, 16:38 PM
#27
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 674


2 months, 1 week, 10 days, 6 hours, and 20 minutes.
How can a man/woman be so cruel.
19 Jan 2020, 17:20 PM
#28
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 517



we should be buffing more and nerfing less! still i dont agree with op :snfPeter:


Why? I think they are an example of a balanced squad in the first 15 minutes of a game, but by choosing them, your mainline infantry’s comparative effectiveness drops greatly in the late game.

Bar riflemen cost 280mp 120munitions, and Bren IS cost 270mp 90munitions, which is way more than a g43 grenadier, BUT they both cost the same pop cap, and getting more Power for less pop cap gives a big advantage late game

It’s also not like you can replace your g43grenadiers with Lmg42s, as you would loose all the veterancy on the squads if you killed them off and replaced them.


By giving them a second upgrade, you could bring their performance per pop up to the standards of allied squads.
19 Jan 2020, 22:25 PM
#29
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 975

I don't think we need more buffs, all over most units need nerfs.

But I would like to see the G43 upgrade gets removed by the 5th men-upgrade.



Edit: Real balancing would be to change the hole upgrade system of Allii infantry. No double brens, no double bars. Removing the hole pick-up system because it destroyes the game. Removing the hole idiot blobbing sytsem.
20 Jan 2020, 00:31 AM
#30
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 420

I don't think we need more buffs, all over most units need nerfs.

But I would like to see the G43 upgrade gets removed by the 5th men-upgrade.



Edit: Real balancing would be to change the hole upgrade system of Allii infantry. No double brens, no double bars. Removing the hole pick-up system because it destroyes the game. Removing the hole idiot blobbing sytsem.

Good idea for slot weapon system
20 Jan 2020, 09:27 AM
#31
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7098 | Subs: 1


....

Conscripts were decent on 1v1 against OH and irrelevant against OKW PRE REWORK unless PPSH and spam was used.
Cons post OKW rework with STG Volks, were useless.


...

7 men Cons are a byproduct of USF, UKF (which lead to changes and buffs to OH which in result change the dynamic with SOV) and OKW merely existing. Pre and post rework on whatever faction.

PD: the upgrade is on the OP side but nothing small nerfs/remove features might not fix.

You are entitled to your opinion but your own sentence, in my opinion, means that conscripts kept receiving buff including the 7 men because vs "STG Volks, were useless."

Point is that the LMG grenadier are irrelevant to 7 men conscript.
20 Jan 2020, 10:16 AM
#32
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 124

The 7 men was a required change, even vs lmg grens. The only reason soviets were competitive at that time is becouse of T70 that pretty much was the sole AI of soviets at that time. And guards that pretty much replaced every conscript lost. Nobody would ever rebuild them.

Or you could go T70 with t1 into call in cheese. But outside of ppsh cons they were pretty bad vs wher espacially in the lategame
20 Jan 2020, 18:11 PM
#33
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6612 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jan 2020, 09:27 AMVipper

You are entitled to your opinion but your own sentence, in my opinion, means that conscripts kept receiving buff including the 7 men because vs "STG Volks, were useless."

Point is that the LMG grenadier are irrelevant to 7 men conscript.


Kinda. Let me explain. I'll separate this in 2 parts.

OKW: either pre rework or post rework, Conscripts were not a good option against OKW. Be it Volks, doctrinal units or Obers. Keeping the focus on STG Volks is missing the whole forest. Yes, they were the most recent and biggest issue but ignoring the rest is just failing to see the context on which the change was finally applied.

OH: Yes, the LMG is the least concerning point regarding the decision on making the 7 men upgrade. That's why i said that the changes as a whole faction which is a consequence of the power level of how the new factions were released, have given space for Conscripts to receive some kind of late game upgrade.
That contribution to space was also done through nerfing most other opening to some degree (Penals, Maxims, Doctrinal units) and AI tools (T70, mines/demo, mortar, KV8, ISU)*.

Cons/Grens struggle equally on late game but for different reasons. This is why in their match up in 1v1 they were fine, but once we incorporate teamgames, thats a whole different issue.

*Yes, some of those units are still strong. But not strong as to make the whole army composition work around.

20 Jan 2020, 18:34 PM
#34
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 975


Good idea for slot weapon system


I simply think the Ostheer/OKW/Soviet system is simply way better than the stupid system of Brits/US nobody needs and only makes blobbing attractive.

Normal upgrades for all fractions and only some special weapons can be droped. How needs PTRS? Remove the drop of it.
20 Jan 2020, 19:30 PM
#35
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1462 | Subs: 1

100% agree with OP. I can see no way in which a mainline infantry unit with snare that has almost no penalties to moving accuracy and further buff Grenadier DPS would be a bad idea. Would buff again!
20 Jan 2020, 20:09 PM
#36
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 1627

What about removing G43s altogether?

Make the package 40 muni for Grenadiers, giving them interrogation and camouflage. Keep the upgrade as is for Pgrens and Stormtroopers.
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