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Can you count on Osttruppen?

Can you count on Osttruppen?
Option Distribution Votes
56%
44%
Total votes: 59
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
16 Dec 2019, 11:27 AM
#1
avatar of |GB| The Lnt.599

Posts: 322 | Subs: 1

So I recently I was browsing the coh2 Wehrmacht guides to look for inspiration on new strats. Didn't found any but I did found the great, now slightly outdated, guide on the ostruppen. I was completely forgotten about this commander existence. Now a while ago the osttruppen received some changes so I decided to give them a shot again.

(Changes were: cool down on start and slower re-enforce time, but they receive an shitty version of the lmg42 after bp3, correct me if I'm wrong)

Now I played a few games with this osttruppen doc and the other Doc's with prostruppen call ins. I found that that they could have some potential if they get a few small buffs. Atm u either have to really outplay your opponent or rely upon the enemy's stupidity to win with them. But against equal skill they are a bit a lackluster.

They were meant to be used in numbers and in defensive positions. The thing is if u want to get the most out of a defensive position u need to get there first, and in the case of ostruppen with significant numbers too. This is atm kinda hard to achieve since they have a cool down at the start. So usually they will arrive at the same time the enemy's first squad does so too. When this happens you are basically behind since u need generally 2 ostruppen squad's to fend off 1 enemy's squad. Especially when u have to attack, and can't stick in their position with cover.

Following that: u managed to get to a defensive position and u need to hold it, u need a way to re-enforce. This will be a half-track or a command bunker. Because ostruppen models drop like flies. Now the old re-enforce time was really to short but I feel the current one is kinda a overnerf. I feel there should be a solution in the middle.

Finally I think that ostruppen should receive their shitty lmg upgrade earlier. Maybe at bp2 or just add it as vet 1 or 2 of your prostruppen but also at the same time at bp3 because u will have to replace some of them at some point in the game :p. The main reason they need it earlier is because how will I otherwise pick a fight with allied 5 man dubble upgraded squad or 7man cons.

I think now is the time to take a look on osttruppen because most other axis units received some changes to make them a more viable option (assgrens, pgrens and even grens). I think osttruppen are forgotten or fall behind in this aspect. Which is a shame because it would add more strats to the game. Also the ostruppen docs don't contain heavy tanks (except lighting war, with ostruppen via relief infantry) so i think a few buffs wont make the doc broken again. You will have to shine with prosttruppen in the early and mid game, because u wont have any thing special for the late game. atm i feel this is really hard or near impossible to achieve.

In short i would suggest any combo of/ or all the followingen changes.


- Scrap the cooldown on the start on prostruppen, or make it 50% shorter. You need every second u can get in the early game to try snowball with prostruppen;

- Make their re-enforce time slightly shorter;

Give them earlier acces to there shitty lmg43 [dont buff it because a 6 man (normal) lmg42 squad would probably quite broken in those numbers]

- give them access to the weapon upgrade at vet 1 or 2 & keep also the bp3 tech requirement for fresh ostruppen that arrive in the late game.

- give them access to the weapon upgrade after bp1 or bp2


plz disccuss
16 Dec 2019, 11:33 AM
#2
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17909 | Subs: 8

I can agree on the LMG part(also, their LMG is still better then brens, it costs 75% of gren LMG and performs at 75% efficiency).
16 Dec 2019, 12:00 PM
#3
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1

LMG should be removed, their upgrade should use a similar logic with 7men conscript.

Imo one should test increasing base received accuracy and losing the cover mechanics once upgraded.
16 Dec 2019, 12:53 PM
#4
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

I'd rather see some USF and Soviet adjustments.

USF infantry is OP in general. Osttruppen with one or two MG42s is good against Soviets. Conscripts and their 7 man upgrade are a late-game problem but that is not an Osttruppen problem but something all Axis infantry struggles with. Osttruppen into T2 is already good vs UKF so I don't really think it's Osttruppen that are the problem but rather the hordes of Allied infantry (in particular USF) that just stomp Axis infantry in general.
16 Dec 2019, 13:21 PM
#5
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

Osttruppen don’t need changes.
16 Dec 2019, 13:23 PM
#6
avatar of |GB| The Lnt.599

Posts: 322 | Subs: 1

Osttruppen don’t need changes.


feel free to elaborate :)
16 Dec 2019, 13:31 PM
#7
avatar of Angrade (Ægion)
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 766 | Subs: 2

Personally, I would like to see their cover buff and debuff to be more focused on received accuracy/ received damage instead of their weapon accuracy. This could make them better as stall unit forcing engagements to go longer. Allowing support weapons and vehicles to move in.

Additionally, Osttruppen Reserves should a Standard Osttruppen for Mobile Defense. Two Osttruppen at three CP is not very good.
16 Dec 2019, 13:35 PM
#8
avatar of Antemurale
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 951

I've been playing the WM Osttruppen Doctrine a ton recently (fits really well into my previous T2-rush build) so I'd argue that Osttruppen are fine. I find them paltry infantry so I only go for 2 of them and have them babysit my MG42s.

I'd like to see the MG42 upgrade come at BP2. Currently there's quite a gap (perhaps 10 min) between the time US get their BARs/M1919s or Soviets get their elite infantry and when Osttruppen can get their MG42 to not get walked over.
16 Dec 2019, 13:36 PM
#9
avatar of 0ld_Shatterhand
Donator 22

Posts: 194

Osttruppen right now are a waste of manpower. They have no staying power and the swarm and snowball tactic doesn't work anymore because of the starting cooldown.
And while the seven men conscripts definitely are OP, Ostruppen are useless even then fighting normal conscripts.
I personally would like a change to their durability, so they become real defensive infantry who doesn't kill much but keeps the frontline and allows all your other tools to do the work. So reworking their cover buff and the upgrade into that direction would solve the old snowballing and make them unique and solve a problem Ostheer has.
16 Dec 2019, 13:37 PM
#10
avatar of |GB| The Lnt.599

Posts: 322 | Subs: 1



Additionally, Osttruppen Reserves should a Standard Osttruppen for Mobile Defense. Two Osttruppen at three CP is not very good.


yea i was thinking the same exactly. Its also weird u pay 25 mp extra for a random lmg upgrade while u can upgrade it later anyway xD
16 Dec 2019, 13:50 PM
#11
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

Osttruppen are extremely powerful if you know how to use them properly. This design shouldn’t change to make them weaker but more mainstream.

If you wanna ask for a change, pick a unit that’s underperforming.
16 Dec 2019, 14:09 PM
#12
avatar of |GB| The Lnt.599

Posts: 322 | Subs: 1

Osttruppen are extremely powerful if you know how to use them properly. This design shouldn’t change to make them weaker but more mainstream.

If you wanna ask for a change, pick a unit that’s underperforming.


please give me a replay of you so i can learn from your skill
16 Dec 2019, 14:33 PM
#13
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 730

Rework make Ostruppen like Consript,will OK
16 Dec 2019, 14:43 PM
#14
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

Osttruppen Commander was my favorit for years, sadly it changed, because everything made this troups good was removed.

1. no refresh on 251-flamer. That was the biggest "passive" nerf to Osttruppen.
2. lower drop-rates of Allii-weapons.
3. weaponslot to 1
4. refresh-rate nerf

and the commanders was killed by:

1. 2. Gustav can't be used in enemy bases
2. weapon suppoert instead of the ress-plain

Some changes were needed for the main balancing, but Osttruppen become worse and worse.

- They don't worth 200mp in late-game without any ability.
- They are bad weapon-crews
- Better give them 2-3 weapon-slot and remove the LMG-upgrade.

**change to make them useful:

Changes to Osttruppen (all variants):

1. give them normal hit-box-sice when they don't move. So they become useful as weapon-crews.
2. remove the LMG-upgrade, give them 2-3 weapon-slot instead, so they can pick up stuff.
3. Osttruppen should be able to build sand-bags and wire without commander! So all commanders benefit form Osttruppen.


Changes to Osttruppen-Commander (old version)
1. change trenches with new Bunker-Trench ability. (only pios can build)
2. remove the HMG34/PaK drop, give them a Beutepanzer T34/76 instead.



16 Dec 2019, 17:16 PM
#15
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Tbh I think ostroppen are fine. They fill a niche role for the ost:cheap per head and durable for an OST squad. They can build Bunkers and have a snare so they are really great support troops, kinda like a better rear echelon (in terms of filling the role)
The faster pgren change offers much quicker "oomph" for infantry damage and the airdropped team weapons using the manpower you save using ostroppen are basically made to rush armour (like the new and improved Ostwind for example)
They are not elite infantry they are more like reserve infantry. They are not supposed to go toe to toe with kitted out rifles they are supposed to buy you ground and trade well in defending that ground. They NEED support and in turn provide it via snare and good in cover output for cost.

I would hate to see the spirit of the unit taken away because some people want them to be easier to attack move with like falls did. Ostroppen are meant for a specific playstyle and those that use that playstyle appreciate them, those that don't utilize that specific style don't.
16 Dec 2019, 17:29 PM
#16
avatar of Acidfreak

Posts: 281

Osttruppen Commander was my favorit for years, sadly it changed, because everything made this troups good was removed.

1. no refresh on 251-flamer. That was the biggest "passive" nerf to Osttruppen.
2. lower drop-rates of Allii-weapons.
3. weaponslot to 1
4. refresh-rate nerf

and the commanders was killed by:

1. 2. Gustav can't be used in enemy bases
2. weapon suppoert instead of the ress-plain

Some changes were needed for the main balancing, but Osttruppen become worse and worse.

- They don't worth 200mp in late-game without any ability.
- They are bad weapon-crews
- Better give them 2-3 weapon-slot and remove the LMG-upgrade.

**change to make them useful:

Changes to Osttruppen (all variants):

1. give them normal hit-box-sice when they don't move. So they become useful as weapon-crews.
2. remove the LMG-upgrade, give them 2-3 weapon-slot instead, so they can pick up stuff.
3. Osttruppen should be able to build sand-bags and wire without commander! So all commanders benefit form Osttruppen.


Changes to Osttruppen-Commander (old version)
1. change trenches with new Bunker-Trench ability. (only pios can build)
2. remove the HMG34/PaK drop, give them a Beutepanzer T34/76 instead.





2 to 3 weapon slots? Are you kidding me? What is the fault of poor conscripts that they get stuck at 1?
16 Dec 2019, 18:11 PM
#17
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1



2 to 3 weapon slots? Are you kidding me? What is the fault of poor conscripts that they get stuck at 1?

The could pick 2 vickers K and become OP.
16 Dec 2019, 19:13 PM
#18
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

I think Osttruppen could use some love. They used to be nice to rush out, which kinda made up for their lackluster performance. Now they arrive later and they really struggle to kill anything despite being 200MP units that can't really do anything except shoot their rifles. At least other cheap units like combat engineers can build mines and stuff. Ostruppen are just there to be a snare-screen for your snipers.
16 Dec 2019, 19:40 PM
#19
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
As "lord of ostruppen" (as crowned by Stormjager) I will add my 2 cents. Can u count on ostruppen in general? Not really. It's highly situational and still takes a fair bit of micro. The changes to ostruppen docs have roughly a net zero affect on overall power of ostruppen. The cooldown nerf as mentioned already means your ostruppen will have to settle for green cover a bit closer to home. The reinforce nerf that hardly gets mentioned is actually an even bigger nerf. Ostruppen used to reinforce extremely fast, now it seems the time required is now doubled. This is a serious blow to field presence which is what ostruppen are meant for. The lmg upgrade only partially covers for the loss of field presence (in the form of better combat) as it's an inferior lmg42 and it arrives far too late. My suggestion would be to either revert the reinforce nerf or lmg available after T3. What the changes to Ostruppen brought was flexibility as fausts are now available with T1 or T2 and supply drops include a pak possibly allowing T2 skip. Smoke from arty officer allows for potential T1 skip. I believe in general Ostruppen doc > Defensive doc.

For 1v1, Ostruppen as mentioned earlier is highly situational, more map dependant than enemy faction dependant. U can't go wrong with Ostruppen on Armhem, Lost Glider and Langres, the building maps. Next best maps are open maps like Crossroads, new Angoville, etc. Also, regardless of map Ostruppen is always good vs UKF and penal builds. Vs penal builds, always get mg, t1, 4 ostruppen and go straight for the cutoff. This build hardcounters the engi-engi-penal-m3-penal build. If u do well, it's gg in 6 minutes. Otherwise, you'll still have a permanent resource adv from the start. Vs UKF, on open maps, it's ost-sniper-ost-ost. Otherwise go for double mortars to out-turtle the brits in an attrition war. Mg only vs blobbing brits. If your confident UKF won't get the UC, skip t1. Vs Con builds, you'll wanna play defensively cuz cons kinda hardcounter Ostruppen. 3ost,1mg, skip t1 and open maps call for double 222 otherwise pgrens and then start pushing back. Ostruppen were never good vs USF and only use them if you're on the best 3 maps mentioned earlier or you're feeling very aggressive. Vs penals and USF, you'll wanna play aggressive against the cutoff as they lack the defensive tools to protect the cutoff. Cycle your weak squads to back cap while your opponent struggles to regain his cutoff.

On crowded team games, they're slightly less effective as capping is less important. However, staying power is very important in teamgames and ostruppen excellent for camping/turtling which will out-attrition your opponent. U can't go wrong with a bunch of ostruppen and a few mortars. Ostrupen doc is great for rushing T4 as the staying power and larger amount of infantry allow u to safely rush T4. And needless to say, arty officer + werfers......... u know what I mean. Which is why ostruppen doc > def doc. arty off+ supply drop > pak 43 + stug e
16 Dec 2019, 20:53 PM
#20
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

...


You like the LMG upgrade? This upgrade is the reason, why they lost their 2nd weapon-slot. I would prever the two slots instead, maybe an other upgrade? The refresh nerf was needed, because... they wanted it.


Changes for Osttruppen:

1. Price from 200 to 210 = reasons are some buffs and changes
2. Refresh cost from 16 to 14M mp.
3. Targetsice from 1,25 to 1.087 (Cons), multiplier *1,15 on the move = better in defensive, still get their unit-special handycap.
4. Make sandbags and wire non-doc for Osttruppen, so they can build it earliers and all kind of Osttruppen can benefit of it.
5. Their DPS seems fine, they don't need the LMG upgrade. Give them 2 weapon-slots instead.


Changes for Commanders:

Osttruppen-Commander:

~ Buff the trenches, add some stuff like heavy wire etc. e.g. as OKW.
~ I simply don't like the new weapon call in, I would like to see a german T34 instead. There are enough blueprint funktions to make it unique.

Defensive-Commander:

~ HMG-bunkers need more health, or a modifier to get less damage from PaKs and tanks.
~ StuG E... that will be a longer story xD Give commander hull-down instead.

-> StuG E is still a bad vehicle, with the potential to be a useful stock-weapon.

I would like to see StuG E become a T2 units, needing T3 tech and make it an light arty-vehicle like M8A1 Howitzer.




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