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russian armor

Tank hunter doctrine underpowered

2 Dec 2019, 11:10 AM
#1
avatar of Ritter

Posts: 152

conscripts/engies cant even make anti tank barricades.
Conscripts stuck to 6 men. Cons keep dying in late game, and its too expensive to reinforce due to lack of 7 men upgrade.
Camoflage turns SUs into immobile "please hit me" targets. I never use camo bc its so damn useless.

I dont even know what is good about this doctrin. Using it means definite defeat.

2 Dec 2019, 16:43 PM
#4
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1293

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2019, 11:10 AMRitter
conscripts/engies cant even make anti tank barricades.
Conscripts stuck to 6 men. Cons keep dying in late game, and its too expensive to reinforce due to lack of 7 men upgrade.
Camoflage turns SUs into immobile "please hit me" targets. I never use camo bc its so damn useless.

I dont even know what is good about this doctrin. Using it means definite defeat.



While true, all of these points plus several other problems have been discussed in other threads recently.
2 Dec 2019, 17:15 PM
#5
avatar of Ritter

Posts: 152

2 Dec 2019, 18:11 PM
#6
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1134 | Subs: 1

Add tank traps to the mine laying ability, fix the cluster bombs, and I think the doctrine will be fine. It's not meant to be a normal doctrine, more of an ultra specialized one to fulfill a specific purpose.

I personally would rather see the B4 in the doctrine than the ML-20 for thematic purposes, but it is not really necessary.
2 Dec 2019, 18:13 PM
#7
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3234 | Subs: 1

While the Camo does reduce rotation a lot it also grants a first strike bonus of 20% more pen, 20%accuracy and 25% faster reload. It's more for t34s or su76s tbh as the su85 lacks neither pen nor accuracy. Either way it's a trade off. A tactical decision: which is more important right now? Mobility or significant increases to my gun?
2 Dec 2019, 23:13 PM
#8
avatar of Ritter

Posts: 152

SU85 with camo is suicide. ull get flanked and this tank cant rotate nor retreat. And it cant folllow to finihs off a tank.
remove this ability completely! And give it sth better
2 Dec 2019, 23:30 PM
#9
avatar of Acidfreak

Posts: 170

Agreed b4 will be nice. Finally it will be 2nd commander with this ability. Ml-20 is kinda meh anyways. Doesn't even come close to lefh in real game.
2 Dec 2019, 23:56 PM
#10
avatar of Ritter

Posts: 152

is b4 better than ml 20?
3 Dec 2019, 01:18 AM
#11
avatar of Acidfreak

Posts: 170

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2019, 23:56 PMRitter
is b4 better than ml 20?

B4 can be use to directly shoot tanks. It has greater tank busting ability than the lackluster ml20.
3 Dec 2019, 02:43 AM
#12
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3234 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2019, 23:13 PMRitter
SU85 with camo is suicide. ull get flanked and this tank cant rotate nor retreat. And it cant folllow to finihs off a tank.
remove this ability completely! And give it sth better

If you're su85 is getting flanked, even in camo it's because you failed not the ability. Try combining other elements of the commander. Like the cheap mines that stun (can't flank of you are stunned) or the camo cons with the amazingly powerful at barrage (can't flank if you are dead either) I get the feeling you simply don't understand the commander or the basic gameplay elements that go into it nor the tactical element of the game

For starts:

am·bush
/ˈambo͝oSH/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a surprise attack by people lying in wait in a concealed position.

Suprise attack. The enemy might think your su85 is for some reason out on the front completely void of any support what so ever and think it's an easy kill but ALAS! Twas but a trick! Turns out you did support your su85... Like you are supposed to and it was a trap! You gave the enemy a juicy target... Or so they thought! But you were ready... Oh yes you were ready.. You had the mines to stun, the cons to boom and the wreck to smoke so the enemy would tread more carefully next time....

Or alternatively they were right and you sent an unsupported TD disguised as a Bush into the middle of the map and expected it to win the game for you. Given your complaints about getting a 60 range TD flanked so easily can we assume the latter?
3 Dec 2019, 23:47 PM
#14
avatar of Ritter

Posts: 152

the tank is not disguised as a bush...Only to u.
4 Dec 2019, 23:58 PM
#15
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1293


stupid theory crafting

Unless tanks only come in through the narrow arc of the SU85, the ability becomes a liability and delays the first shot, which you only get by taking it out of camo and losing the bonuses.
5 Dec 2019, 06:27 AM
#16
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3234 | Subs: 1


Unless tanks only come in through the narrow arc of the SU85, the ability becomes a liability and delays the first shot, which you only get by taking it out of camo and losing the bonuses.

Yea. That's uh... That's how ambushes work pal. If you can't figure out where the enemy is going to come from... Don't put the unit into ambush mode! Nuts eh? If you DO you can set it up and benifit from the bonus. And it applies to units other than the su85 as well. You can get a pen/accuracy/ROF bonus for your T70 if you would like. The pen is unimpressive on it but the ROF and accuracy will help it mulch infantry even more. It'll bump a t34 up to p4 levels of pen! Nothing forces you to get these bonuses. It's your CHOICE to do so if you feel it's worth it if you don't that's fine, sometimes mobility is better than offense, it's a choice you need to make. That's part of the game.
6 Dec 2019, 06:08 AM
#17
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1536

Yes your su85 will automatically get flanked if it uses camo...

Let's pay no attention to the fact that the commander provides your cons with the strongest snare in the entire game, specifically designed to fuck up tanks that are going in for a dive...
6 Dec 2019, 06:18 AM
#18
avatar of Ritter

Posts: 152

The strongest?
they are trash compared to regular axis squads equipped with bazookas.
6 Dec 2019, 06:19 AM
#19
avatar of Maret

Posts: 573

Doctrine have onle few problems:
1. Ml-20 don't fit in any sense to these commander, better replace it by mark target.
2. Ninja nerf of AT-bombing. It even couldn't kill 1 stug, while cost onle 20 ammo less than bombing run (that could kill entire tiger), while in old-times it was really powerfull ability. It's like "Close the pocket" in OST doctrine - the main and bright ability of this comander.
6 Dec 2019, 06:57 AM
#20
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1536

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Dec 2019, 06:19 AMMaret

2. Ninja nerf of AT-bombing. It even couldn't kill 1 stug, while cost onle 20 ammo less than bombing run (that could kill entire tiger), while in old-times it was really powerfull ability.


Still very powerful against heavies, or multiple mediums clustered/bumping into one another

The il2 bombing run power is great because of its precision, but that also means its easier to dodge. The ptab is just way more spread out

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