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russian armor

Stats from the WCS 2019

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4 Dec 2019, 09:08 AM
#101
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15216 | Subs: 7

We know 60td of today is too oppressive later a game goes. Let see a slight range standardised to each band of tanks will work.

Stop spamming heavies against which they are "oppressive" then?
They all were made much more reliable against heavies while toned down against meds, yet people missed the message and still spam heavies instead of building meds.

Also, your range "standarization" makes no sense what so ever, it already is "standarized", allied TDs are 60, super heavies are 70, below 100fu ones either have less range or less damage and durability, panther is its own unique league.
4 Dec 2019, 09:31 AM
#102
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1140

No imo the current standards can be refined as suggested.

Lets see the new match up

Old/new td vs med
60v40 range with whatever sight/accuracy/ability adv
55v40 range with whatever sight/accuracy/ability adv
Surely, you can still do it with 15 range more

Old/new td vs heavy callin
60v50
55v45
Straight buff to Pershing and IS2, goes back to supplement the Su85 and Jackson
No change to Tigers.

Old/new td vs panther
60v50
55v50
Straight buff to panther. Surely spending for T4/Panther and losing a chunk of AI, deserves this.

Old/new td vs heavy callin td
60v70
55v65
No change

Old/new td vs ATg
Straight buff to ATg.
Surely that's the point of 'stationery' setup support units. 55Td can still engaged safelier than with its range adv

4 Dec 2019, 10:07 AM
#103
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1031

No imo the current standards can be refined as suggested.

Lets see the new match up

Old/new td vs med
60v40 range with whatever sight/accuracy/ability adv
55v40 range with whatever sight/accuracy/ability adv
Surely, you can still do it with 15 range more

Old/new td vs heavy callin
60v50
55v45
Straight buff to Pershing and IS2, goes back to supplement the Su85 and Jackson
No change to Tigers.

Old/new td vs panther
60v50
55v50
Straight buff to panther. Surely spending for T4/Panther and losing a chunk of AI, deserves this.

Old/new td vs heavy callin td
60v70
55v65
No change

Old/new td vs ATg
Straight buff to ATg.
Surely that's the point of 'stationery' setup support units. 55Td can still engaged safelier than with its range adv

someone abuse t70 in tourmament and best way to fix that is to change evrything because we need more mess
No thx
4 Dec 2019, 11:05 AM
#104
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8286 | Subs: 1

The problem with Allied TDs is not their max range but their performance at max range.

The can have little reason to close to any target since they can snipe them from max range and damage them (hit and penetrate) with very high probability.

The combination of high base stat and high vet bonuses is simply too much.

The guns of this unis could easily get a different profile lowering things like ROF, accuracy, Penetration at max range so that they become less effective at those ranges.
4 Dec 2019, 11:12 AM
#105
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 116

The issue with the stats presented is that it does not take into account the difference in skill between the players. Studying the correlation between the seed placing difference is needed when comparing the factions. If factions are balanced then the winrate for each faction should follow a trend where lower seeds lose to higher with the same probability. If this is not taken into account then the stats are useless.
4 Dec 2019, 14:24 PM
#106
avatar of blancat

Posts: 788

Nerf heavy tank first

TD range change is later
4 Dec 2019, 14:39 PM
#107
avatar of blancat

Posts: 788

If the heavy tank has become so strong, how can a commander without a heavy tank beat a commander with heavy tank?

Are the skills of a commander without a heavy tank better than the skills of a commander with a heavy tank? No

The heavy tank patch further narrowed the commander's choice and actually forced the heavy tank in competitive tournaments

TD range nerf will make this situation worse

Do you think only about heavy tanks, not the balance between commanders?

Commanders without heavy tanks must rely on the TD, and nerfing the range of the TD worsens the balance between the commanders
4 Dec 2019, 14:43 PM
#108
avatar of blancat

Posts: 788

Also, the reason why the win rate of the axis in the tournament was low is because the Soviet is too strong, not the problem of TD.

YES

NERF FUCKING SOVIET PLZ
4 Dec 2019, 15:42 PM
#109
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1140

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Dec 2019, 11:05 AMVipper
The problem with Allied TDs is not their max range but their performance at max range.

The can have little reason to close to any target since they can snipe them from max range and damage them (hit and penetrate) with very high probability.

The combination of high base stat and high vet bonuses is simply too much.

The guns of this unis could easily get a different profile lowering things like ROF, accuracy, Penetration at max range so that they become less effective at those ranges.


Thanks for the input as always vipper. Sadly i dont think max range performance will change or has meaningful room left to change. We arrive at this stage by intention, after seeing the evolution of patches.

Likewise allies Td at 60 is not just numbers but the intention was clearly, originally then, to give them margin of safety when they were more rng design.

Since we have now taken away the rng from them, obviously the margin should decrease to stop double up on design strengths.

55 still preserve the characteristics of today td design.
4 Dec 2019, 19:16 PM
#110
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7104 | Subs: 1



Panthers always have 960hp iirc. It even used to have 320 front armour and 0.065 move accuracy!

Reading through old patch notes.

60td were originally set as cheaper mass-able with explosive damages at rng range

Today 60td are now less explosive but constant damages at virtually no rng. While costs gone up, but still higher efficiency as compared to their opponents, with crazy vet bonus.

Imo the equation of safety range goes well with rng and explosives.

A -5 range change makes most sense now they are dealing constant hp bleed, the need for distance margin should be lowered.

55td is still higher range! 55td still have clear sight/accuracy advantages! 60td should be reserved for slow ass ATg and callin Td. There are not much changes required down line for armor imo

And yes jackson went from mass AT tanks to highly efficient AT brawler.


Panther has gone through multiple versions. If we talk about release, it was basically a T3485 with more HP. Then it went to be for years a tank hunter (armor + pen) with 800 HP which gain that 960HP back through vet and been expensive as heck.
The current version basically rollback the armor in favour of giving it back the 960HP back limiting it's armor value. This means that it can reliable engage enemy vehicles without relying on a flipcoin on whether a hit would pen or not. Pen has gone up and RoF was buffed.

Not sure what you refer to "explosive damage".
Su85 were tailored towards been anti medium tanks. The vehicle became "obsolete" once OKW was released. It was easier for OKW to put out heavier armored vehicles compared to OH (PV was strong but almost impossible to afford en masse). This was also paired with Su76 changes, which were enough to counter medium tank and heavier (due to sheer amount of firepower) and just spam barrage with them.
Penetration went up and RoF was nerfed instead. They never had issues with PIVs before at 4s RoF and been cheaper. If anything, cost wise, it's way more effective dealing with TDs now than before.

Jackson had 480 HP but their cannon had lower pen with BIG 240dmg value. This was barely fine on 1v1, when volume of units is lower, but made the faction basically useless for teamgames outside of early to mid game. If you couldn't end the game before 20 mins, you would basically stop trying.

This was the preview patch on which Jackson at 55 range was tested and discarded
https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/244965/spring-update-balance-preview-changelog


5 Dec 2019, 06:40 AM
#111
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1140

I don't think 55 td was truly tested en masse.
Likewise panther seem to get pop nerf suddenly because of 4v4. Not sure how big the test audience are to give feedback.

As for okw heavy armour, we dont have them today or at least heavy to win or roll dice to pen. Hence its time to reconsider 60 range would you not agree?

5 Dec 2019, 17:29 PM
#112
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1140

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAJU8EKfZTA

Watching this game hurts me. SU85 + KV1 armor oppressive total.
Another call for 60 range should reserved for ATg or heavy TD.

I wonder why Okw didnt try Jp4. He will probably lack AI against Sov, hence the P4.
5 Dec 2019, 17:50 PM
#113
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1140

60TD now = low risk high rewards (killing higher value tanks via ez consistent sniping)
Panther = high risk low rewards (killing lower value tanks)

Please reconsider
5 Dec 2019, 21:08 PM
#114
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15216 | Subs: 7

TDs aren't getting any range nerf, you're a fly that bashes against a window, expecting to pass after just one more slam.
5 Dec 2019, 21:57 PM
#115
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 897

This was the preview patch on which Jackson at 55 range was tested and discarded
https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/244965/spring-update-balance-preview-changelog


Was a reason ever given for why the change was discarded? It seems the range part just never made it to the final patch (whereas the vet and sight did), which has happened in the past to both good and bad ideas.

TDs aren't getting any range nerf, you're a fly that bashes against a window, expecting to pass after just one more slam.


TD ranges have been changed many, many times over the years - just 3 months ago the JT was nerfed to 70 range, after being at 80 since release. There's no reason that the current ranges can't be changed.

5 Dec 2019, 22:10 PM
#116
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15216 | Subs: 7


TD ranges have been changed many, many times over the years - just 3 months ago the JT was nerfed to 70 range, after being at 80 since release. There's no reason that the current ranges can't be changed.

You've confused super heavies with regular TDs, latter never had range changes.
5 Dec 2019, 22:40 PM
#117
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 897


You've confused super heavies with regular TDs, latter never had range changes.


June 11, 2013
Panther 60 -> 50
STuG 60 -> 50

June 27, 2014
M10 45 -> 50

April 25, 2017
Comet 50 -> 45

Dec 19, 2017
Panther Veterancy 4 range bonus removed


I've probably missed a few, and there were also a lot of range changes to the Ele, ISU-152 and JT; but we're ignoring those.
5 Dec 2019, 22:50 PM
#118
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15216 | Subs: 7

Would you look at that, it was so long time ago I refused to believe it was actually real, I was completely convinced that 60 range 1200+hp panther was a pre release beta thing.
6 Dec 2019, 01:30 AM
#119
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1140


You've confused super heavies with regular TDs, latter never had range changes.


Which they should consider now.

As above, 60td low risk high rewards. Im sure you agree.

There is little reason for axis armor to make so called dives with the snares. Risking higher value tanks that won't even have good chance to accomplish the goals wrt rof, accuracy and pen. Its not like p4 or p5 or stug deals higher hp bleed...
6 Dec 2019, 02:46 AM
#120
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1517

In the round of 32, 15 of the 16 matches were 3-0 or 3-1.
In the round of 16, 6 of the 8 matches were 3-0 or 3-1
In the round of 8, all four matches were 3-0 or 3-1
In the round of 4, both matches were 3-0 or 3-1

Both of the finals were split 3/2.

Only 4 out of 38 matches (10.5%) were closely split. This means that the selection bias is so strong that you can't look at win/loss and conclude anything about the factions. The results are skewed towards whichever faction the better player picks. Even in the cases where the worse player picked faction, it would have rarely helped them win.

The only conclusion that you could make out of this is that elite players don't choose UKF. I haven't noticed any of them commenting on this thread so everyone else is speculating.
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