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UKF absent from tourney play again

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22 Nov 2019, 09:12 AM
#1
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

Obviously when it comes to top level play when even seasoned ukf players are picking soviets or USF instead this is an indicator to where UKF balance is currently. Tommie 10mp decrease or not let's face it their in a pretty dire place right now. A couple of token 3-0 stomp fests in the early rounds aside.

But lurking the forums it seems like there's not much discussion to WHY Brits are weak at current time.

Some would blame it on sub par infantry options, lack of mortar or real heavy tank in a heavy tank meta.

This thread is intended to shine a spotlight on just what the issue is so the balance team can get a better idea of gripes from players and overview to the problems that exist. Hopefully a few top players can throw their hat in the ring and explain why they avoided UKF in competitive play
22 Nov 2019, 09:24 AM
#2
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1

It's pretty simple. Most people don't like UKF so they don't care if the faction is unplayable bad (in 1v1).
22 Nov 2019, 10:03 AM
#3
avatar of Khan

Posts: 578

You know what else was missing? Ostheer.
22 Nov 2019, 10:05 AM
#4
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1

There was plenty of Ostheer used in the tournament. Not as much as OKW obviously but Ostheer wasn't completely neglected unlike UKF.
22 Nov 2019, 10:26 AM
#5
avatar of Khan

Posts: 578

There was plenty of Ostheer used in the tournament. Not as much as OKW obviously but Ostheer wasn't completely neglected unlike UKF.


The finals and semi-finals featured 2 games as Ostheer and 18 as OKW. Go figure.
22 Nov 2019, 10:48 AM
#6
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Nov 2019, 10:26 AMKhan


The finals and semi-finals featured 2 games as Ostheer and 18 as OKW. Go figure.

Compared to zero games for UKF overall?
22 Nov 2019, 10:51 AM
#7
avatar of Khan

Posts: 578

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Nov 2019, 10:48 AMKatitof

Compared to zero games for UKF overall?


I'm not comparing both, lol. If you think UKF has issues because of its absence form tourney play, then Ostheer also qualifies.
22 Nov 2019, 10:57 AM
#8
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13176 | Subs: 1

It probably a number of factor but in an Super heavy meta the Croc simply does not stand up to IS-2 or even Pershing standards.
22 Nov 2019, 10:58 AM
#9
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 177

-Everyone plays OKW because ostheer sucks, people don't wanna pick UKF because it sucks against OKW
-7man cons
-USF memery
That's about it. UKF and Ostheer in their current state are just not competitive alternatives in 1v1.
EDIT: yeah and also heavy tank meta.
22 Nov 2019, 11:38 AM
#10
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2057 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Nov 2019, 10:48 AMKatitof

Compared to zero games for UKF overall?


see barton's and aimstrong's games
22 Nov 2019, 11:42 AM
#11
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

Wait second how can other be picked only 2 time when DDD says they have 90 % win rate and pick rate ?
22 Nov 2019, 12:00 PM
#12
avatar of SturmTigerVorgo

Posts: 307

Infantry is too expensive. A fully upgraded section costs 50 fuel ( 5 men squad + bren upg) + 90 munition and they can't shoot on the move. LEIGs and mortars having a field day. I play complete noob with 2 LEIGs and it takes forever to win. He is not even micro-ing them. I have no counter since they shoot from base. For the first 20 minute UC is the best unit on the field literally. The MG can't suppress nothing on time. They die as easy as grens, their performance is not reflected in the cost. The only practical tanks are churchill and FF but they come very late..if you survive to that point you adversary is a noob anyway. They are just a meh faction. When i play them it's like i try to run with my feet tied up.
With WM i rarely lose to rank 500 if ever. With brits i almost always lose to rank 500 and even worse. I know i suck but so are my opponents :D
Oh and also they don't have a light vehicle that can properly handle infantry. have to do with AEC until T3. but AEC costs tons of fuel for what it can do. I think T70 has almost the same price but T70 is a beast.
also until the section are fully upgraded you can't really handle blobs, WM and OKW. complete noobs just attack moves and i can't stop them.
very frustrating faction to play.
22 Nov 2019, 12:47 PM
#13
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1

Infantry is too expensive. A fully upgraded section costs 50 fuel ( 5 men squad + bren upg) + 90 munition and they can't shoot on the move. LEIGs and mortars having a field day. I play complete noob with 2 LEIGs and it takes forever to win. He is not even micro-ing them. I have no counter since they shoot from base. For the first 20 minute UC is the best unit on the field literally. The MG can't suppress nothing on time. They die as easy as grens, their performance is not reflected in the cost. The only practical tanks are churchill and FF but they come very late..if you survive to that point you adversary is a noob anyway. They are just a meh faction. When i play them it's like i try to run with my feet tied up.
With WM i rarely lose to rank 500 if ever. With brits i almost always lose to rank 500 and even worse. I know i suck but so are my opponents :D
Oh and also they don't have a light vehicle that can properly handle infantry. have to do with AEC until T3. but AEC costs tons of fuel for what it can do. I think T70 has almost the same price but T70 is a beast.
also until the section are fully upgraded you can't really handle blobs, WM and OKW. complete noobs just attack moves and i can't stop them.
very frustrating faction to play.


I know how you feel. When you play UKF half the games end up being straight-up torture because of how easy it is to cheese UKF players. OKW can't do it as much but playing UKF vs Ost in 2v2 is just not fun. It's frustrating because UKF can still be good on certain maps if everything goes to plan and you aren't being abused by multiple MGs, OKW infantry blobs or sim city players.

The thing with UKF is IMO that they will always either be bad because the units they have are just balanced while at the same time the stuff they don't have ruins it. Or they get OP crutch units pre-nerf Sections, UC, Centaur etc to make up for the missing things like indirect fire. And then they will be OP because people will just abuse them (like 5x5 man section blob). It's almost impossible to balance a faction like that.
22 Nov 2019, 12:52 PM
#14
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Nov 2019, 10:26 AMKhan


The finals and semi-finals featured 2 games as Ostheer and 18 as OKW. Go figure.

I'm not comparing both, lol. If you think UKF has issues because of its absence form tourney play, then the Ostheer also qualifies.


15 OKW games (if the OH number are correct, spoilers :P) The thing is i think i saw way more OH play in previous rounds while the presence of UKF was anecdotic.

The difference between hungry and famine. Or been niche and non competitive.

snip


Reminder that ranks between factions are not equivalent outside top100. You should look at level, which is a slightly better estimation of skill.



see barton's and aimstrong's games


Where? There are only 2 games in Stormless, Tightrope, AE on YT.
Spoilers: from those, Bartons game was a "stomp" by Hans as OH (barely losing VPs, although a longer game). Aimstrong vs CC, Aims basically stomped first 2 games (less than 20 vp lost) and the last he made a comeback with OH.

PD: i found another game from Aimstrong vs Luvnest on Twitch. Didn't go well for UKF.
22 Nov 2019, 13:06 PM
#15
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

I don't find this issue as concerning as OP does, the game has 3 allied factions and 2 axis ones, it's not UKF vs axis neither like TF2 where people main one class or like starcraft where each faction is balanced to face the other ones by itself. CoH is mostly s team oriented RTS and UKF has been performing ok on the other game modes.

If people want 1v1 UKF and unique factions, then those same people should give feedback to enrich UKF design instead of blaming bad design, ask for USF or OST units clones and whine openly for the sake of it.

UKF has been always very hard to balance, but imo was the negative feedback it received from most of its players that turned it in what it is now

22 Nov 2019, 13:23 PM
#16
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905

UKF is badly designed at his core beeing way to stationary. The latest patch for infantry only made it worse by shifting it in that direction even more.

If you know what you are doing you can completely own UKF player with double LEIG build. I usually go Firestorm versus UKF. Snipe Infantry out of cover with LEIGs and use the fire rounds to burn down emplacements so fast that its not even funny anymore. I usually use the mobile truck for reinforcing and healing my LEIGs and my infantry. That way I'm more mobile (compared to SwS) and less prone to pushing and artillery because I can quickly relocate.

Later JPIV owns anything but Churchill pretty hard if supported correctly by Volks or Raketen to counter flanks. Firefly with way worse ROF/DPS looses every TD duell.

Only way I found to be halfway competitive as UKF is playing the new commander with Thompson infantry, mobile mortar and Quad halftrack. I like playing the M10 too. That way you can play much more mobile and aggressive.


UKF needs some form of more mobility. Just deconstructing emplacements is not enough because you loose the whole investement and veterancy.

And if you really want to have emplacements in the game (deconstructable and somehow moveable or not) there shouldn't be commanders who can make them overperforming (Advanced Emplacement Regiment) or obsolete (Firestorm Doctrine). That way you can never balance them.
22 Nov 2019, 13:57 PM
#17
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 625

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Nov 2019, 10:48 AMKatitof

Compared to zero games for UKF overall?


That's the same number as Axis victories in the finals! Maybe if there was a third faction to pick from they would have had better luck.
22 Nov 2019, 14:05 PM
#18
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

Some on the fly ideas from me personally to help make UKF better (even though I think they're not that bad, especially not in teamgames), to fill up some holes and weakness in their early and mid game:

- Perhaps a very small (5-10%) cooldown bonus when in cover, so 4 men Infantry Sections in the early game feel just a bit better, without having much of an influence on performance when they are Bolstered and/or with veterancy and weapon upgrades;

- Smoke barrage added to Pyro Infantry Sections, to substitute the lack of easily accessible indirect fire. Would help to fight HMGs, but by being a barrage and having a delay and shared global cooldown, would prevent it from being spammed like back when Riflemen all had smoke grenades;

- Veteran Squad Leader upgraded added as third option for Infantry Sections; replaces one Lee Enfield with a Thompson, gives the squad a small DPS bonus, and removes the out of cover and movement penalties. Basically a way to make some squads more mobile and less vulnerable to indirect fire, with an STG44 Volksgrenadier-like DPS profile;

- An affordable medic upgrade for the HQ that adds two medics to help heal up support weapons and engineers, because even though Infantry Sections heal is great for frontline healing, it's usually quite hard to keep all other troops healed up;

- Removing grenades tech and making grenades available stock after researching T1, as I don't feel the upgrade is cost effective anymore now that IS spam is no longer a viable strategy. It'd help IS fight elite and CQC infantry without having to invest extra resources;

- Assault Sections changed to 0CP call-in infantry, to give UKF more diverse and surprising opening strats, and help them start on certain CQC orientated maps, even if only in one commander.

Ideally Bolstered would be overhauled so it'd become something that's an interesting and strategic choice, rather than being a mandatory upgrade, but I think that would be a very extensive and risky thing to do, so I'm not sure if that'd be possible or desirable at this point.
22 Nov 2019, 14:22 PM
#19
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

UKF has only ever been viable in 1v1 when it's had a overpowered unit to crutch on. Without that, it's simply too easy to exploit its low unit count (and therefore limited options) and its lack of basic tools.

In teamgames it's a different story: the static gameplay makes some of the emplacements viable, and the holes in the faction are filled by their teammate.

USF had a T0 mortar added for a reason.
22 Nov 2019, 15:33 PM
#20
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

UKF stuff


No to #1, hell yes on the rest.
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