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russian armor

reworking TD and giving them a role

12 Nov 2019, 23:52 PM
#81
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 449

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2019, 15:45 PMJilet


That will further buff the TDs since Axis armor needs that speed to fight off the Allied TDs. This idea is the exact opposite of the "good" because in any form of RTS speed and range are the kings (C&C Generals Zero Hour Search & Destroy rocket Humwees for instance). I mean what is the the point of more armor and HP if i will never be able to shoot back ?


I think HP nerfs would be better than speed nerfs myself.
13 Nov 2019, 00:01 AM
#82
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6377 | Subs: 1

Elephant was nerfed shot it would not kill vehicles with 2 shot now why would one make the M36 die from 2 elephant shots?
13 Nov 2019, 00:17 AM
#83
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3215 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2019, 00:01 AMVipper
Elephant was nerfed shot it would not kill vehicles with 2 shot now why would one make the M36 die from 2 elephant shots?

Because it's:
The most mobile TD and thus the most able to escape such a situation.
Currntly breaking balance and other tunes leave a hole in the usf lineup
The elefant has always been a hard counter to TDs, but even now the Jackson is the LEAST vulnerable due to its MANY traits that were used to keep it alive when it was squishy and only make it God tier now that it can literally brawl if it needs to.
13 Nov 2019, 08:26 AM
#85
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6377 | Subs: 1


Because it's:
The most mobile TD and thus the most able to escape such a situation.
Currntly breaking balance and other tunes leave a hole in the usf lineup
The elefant has always been a hard counter to TDs, but even now the Jackson is the LEAST vulnerable due to its MANY traits that were used to keep it alive when it was squishy and only make it God tier now that it can literally brawl if it needs to.

Most of the problems with M36 come from its offensive performance at max range not from its HP.

Making die to 2 elephant/JT shots might lead to another elephant nerf...
13 Nov 2019, 08:34 AM
#86
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 662

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13 Nov 2019, 09:18 AM
#87
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3963

Nah nobody goes for keto tier 2 now at max they back tech it
13 Nov 2019, 11:19 AM
#88
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 662

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2019, 08:26 AMVipper

Most of the problems with M36 come from its offensive performance at max range not from its HP.


That is the problem, especially in relation to its price and crew abilities.
14 Nov 2019, 03:50 AM
#89
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 573

I have an idea. Revert the Jackson fuel cost to 140, increase it's sight radius, leave everything else the same. There the Jackson is "fixed". You see "fixing" something usually means you make it better not worse just so you can win a few more games.
14 Nov 2019, 06:35 AM
#90
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3215 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Nov 2019, 03:50 AMCODGUY
I have an idea. Revert the Jackson fuel cost to 140, increase it's sight radius, leave everything else the same. There the Jackson is "fixed". You see "fixing" something usually means you make it better not worse just so you can win a few more games.

Actually fixing is what you do to something broken to make it not broken.
14 Nov 2019, 19:03 PM
#91
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 573


Actually fixing is what you do to something broken to make it not broken.


As a "tank destroyer" the Jackson seems to be excellent at destroying tanks, so it seems to be not broken at all since it works fine. You're the one talking a about "breaking it" with the nerf hammer so that it can't do it's job as well.
14 Nov 2019, 19:14 PM
#92
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 547

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Nov 2019, 19:03 PMCODGUY
As a "tank destroyer" the Jackson seems to be excellent at destroying tanks, so it seems to be not broken at all since it works fine. You're the one talking a about "breaking it" with the nerf hammer so that it can't do it's job as well.


Yes, the M36 is excellent at destroying tanks. The problem is, it's so good at destroying tanks that it makes basically every other vehicle irrelevant.

There's a difference between "good" and "over performing"; see JLI and/or Falls before they were both nerfed.
14 Nov 2019, 20:03 PM
#93
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 149



Yes, the M36 is excellent at destroying tanks. The problem is, it's so good at destroying tanks that it makes basically every other vehicle irrelevant.

There's a difference between "good" and "over performing"; see JLI and/or Falls before they were both nerfed.

Ye, JLI and Falls were op but are trash after the nerf. Not worth to build them anymore. Luckily Jackson was recently nerfed in a similar fashion by bringing its fuel cost up by 5. Per JLI/Falls standard, it means that Jackson is already post nerfs and is good to stay as it is.
14 Nov 2019, 20:27 PM
#94
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 839


Ye, JLI and Falls were op but are trash after the nerf. Not worth to build them anymore. Luckily Jackson was recently nerfed in a similar fashion by bringing its fuel cost up by 5. Per JLI/Falls standard, it means that Jackson is already post nerfs and is good to stay as it is.


Falls and JLI are trash?!?!?!?!?
14 Nov 2019, 22:22 PM
#95
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 149

Falls and JLI are trash?!?!?!?!?

Sarcasm. Doomlord refered to them as if post nerf they were no longer very effective, while they are. JLI always trade well and Falls are ambush superhumans. With infantry superiority, whether or not you can exercise your infantry to the limits is usually restricted by the vehicle and arty play of your opponent, so enemy infantry superiority while bugging, can be overcomed if there are other tools available to you.

I say similar is true when fighting Jackson. You use the right tools to secure your tanks either by ATG support, fighting in advantageous location, closing the distance yourself, use of infantry with handheld AT, or if you have the luxury of OKW roster, you can build JP4 which handles Jacksons pretty well. 2 successful shots connecting with Jackson usually send it home to repair.

I think Jackson is a very good TD, but it is not broken. Imho it doesn't require any changes as it is now. USF has holes in army composition due to lack of sniper or nondoc rocket arty which limits their power vs teamweapons. Before you say anything about pak howie, you can counter it by rocket arty or by moving your teamweapons to another position as it requires barrage to be used effectively post nerf and the barrage has cooldown. Every tank USF can produce doctrinal or not is vulnerable to Tigers or Panthers. Due to low pen of bazookas or 57mm ATG USF needs Jackson to have reliable response to the threat of axis heavy vehicles.

While Jackson deals damage to heavies reliably, I think that combination of T34 ram + offmap or well used firefly with tulips can be deadlier to axis tanks. Jackson is just consistently good.

One could consider replacing some commander ability with JP4 in one of the wehrmacht doctrines so that any Wehrmacht player that has USF PTSD can build a JP4 if he can't use efficiently the tools that he has.
14 Nov 2019, 22:53 PM
#96
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3215 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Nov 2019, 19:03 PMCODGUY


As a "tank destroyer" the Jackson seems to be excellent at destroying tanks, so it seems to be not broken at all since it works fine. You're the one talking a about "breaking it" with the nerf hammer so that it can't do it's job as well.

The JT is also a tank destroyer but more expensive, less mobile and case mate. It should then get back it's 100 range, world piercing and the 320 damage because as long as it's doing its job its a-OK right? Or would you agree that there is such thing as an over performing unit? Shocks are AI infantry, why do they need to get close to damage the enemy? Shouldn't they have fg42 stats because that's their only job? Or is there supposed to be counter play?
Every strength should be balanced with a weakness (that's what balance is isn't it?) it's current lack of weakness would only be acceptable at a much higher price point but doing so is a catch 22 as then the entire game would revolve around the Jacksons survival as it would be too costly to replace which would destroy the faction.

There is no reason the Jackson can't be the Best TD. One always will be. The issue is the margin at which it outpaces all other TDs in the game and makes the number of AT focused units in usf doctrines completely pointless that is the issue.
14 Nov 2019, 23:00 PM
#97
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 547


Ye, JLI and Falls were op but are trash after the nerf. Not worth to build them anymore. Luckily Jackson was recently nerfed in a similar fashion by bringing its fuel cost up by 5. Per JLI/Falls standard, it means that Jackson is already post nerfs and is good to stay as it is.



Sarcasm. Doomlord refered to them as if post nerf they were no longer very effective, while they are. JLI always trade well and Falls are ambush superhumans. With infantry superiority, whether or not you can exercise your infantry to the limits is usually restricted by the vehicle and arty play of your opponent, so enemy infantry superiority while bugging, can be overcomed if there are other tools available to you.


This is a strawman.
There's a difference between "good" and "over performing"

Nowhere did I say that JLI/Falls were no longer effective or that they were 'trash'.


Before the nerf, JLI/Falls were over-performing; you'd see them in essentially every single game involving OKW, and they would be used as mainline infantry, completely replacing Volks. This is currently the state of the M36; it's fielded in large numbers (2-3+) in every USF game, simply because it's so dominant against other vehicles.
15 Nov 2019, 04:27 AM
#98
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 149

This is a strawman.

Nowhere did I say that JLI/Falls were no longer effective or that they were 'trash'.

Before the nerf, JLI/Falls were over-performing; you'd see them in essentially every single game involving OKW, and they would be used as mainline infantry, completely replacing Volks. This is currently the state of the M36; it's fielded in large numbers (2-3+) in every USF game, simply because it's so dominant against other vehicles.

Nowhere have I said that you said JLI or Falls were no longer effective or trash. "Trash" part was my sarcasm related to how I think a comment on these units being "good" is an understatement. I said that you referred to them as if they were no longer very effective post nerf, even though the selling point of JLI and Falls stayed the same before and post nerf, with their most desired features being 75% crit + and excellent DPS at all ranges respectively.

I would also like to point out that when major change hits a unit (like the Falls buff we had), everyone extensively tries the unit out. Even if a particular doctrine has a very strong unit, some people like to play with something else for a change every now and then. You don't have to necessarily associate lower frequency of Falls plays with ambush bonus bug fix + 20 MP cost increase + vet req increase. 340 MP for elite infantry is the low end cost and if you use your Falls properly they should still vet well. I don't think these changes were significant enough to consider Falls transition from being "OP" to just "good".

You can often see in top 2v2s that OKW player decides to go with 3 Falls strat, so in this regard the game has not changed much.

There were also more than just JLI change that affected the frequency of Overwatch doc picks. Flares that have to be planted manually, changes to the howitzer barrage cooldown, attractiveness of Panzerfusilier blobs and early snare availability, Tiger I for OKW, changes to overwatch skillplanes, all of these influenced the doc pick meta for OKW. Also for the other doc with JLI, it had a dead commander ability being thorough salvage that was initially suicidally long or didn't work post rework for a long time + ineffective synergy of JLI and infiltration nades. Infiltration nades are a good ability that is very situational. Scavenge doctrine is very good with the AI/AA Ostwind and JLI alone, but other doctrines can offer you more powerful tools. What made the JLI not spammable is the 100s cooldown. It's difficult to wait for so long to fill missing space in the infantry roster without sacrificing map control.

Reason why people build Jacksons is because you can't fight axis 230+ armour vehicles with sherman effectively. This is why they build their tank destroyers. You can see Tigers almost every game post heavy tank buff. This is the only way not to lose the game as USF, you have to build Jacksons. Brits have Firefly + 6lb + extra stock tanks that can take a beating, Soviets can at least support their SU-85 with zis gun, satchels or Stun34 to trade for a Panther. USF relies primarily on Jackson. USF ATG ability is cool but consumes a lot of MU and may well bounce even if you hit the target. I don't think USF can afford any changes to the Jackson
15 Nov 2019, 04:49 AM
#99
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 677

See my thread about Tiger.

Pershing > tiger.
Usf players totally underestimated the Pershing.
Try using it.
18 Nov 2019, 10:48 AM
#100
avatar of Princeps

Posts: 80



Reason why people build Jacksons is because you can't fight axis 230+ armour vehicles with sherman effectively. This is why they build their tank destroyers. You can see Tigers almost every game post heavy tank buff. This is the only way not to lose the game as USF, you have to build Jacksons. Brits have Firefly + 6lb + extra stock tanks that can take a beating, Soviets can at least support their SU-85 with zis gun, satchels or Stun34 to trade for a Panther. USF relies primarily on Jackson. USF ATG ability is cool but consumes a lot of MU and may well bounce even if you hit the target. I don't think USF can afford any changes to the Jackson


no u bild jacksons cause u dominate the inf play already and negate the "mythtic" lategame armor advantage.
as okw ur inf gets beaten up by shermans with he so u bring a pz4 or a jp4 but usualy a pz4 because volks get buttfucked by vettet up usf inf. Since its normal as USF to just outrange axis armor with jackons u dont have to flank in any circumstances. Ur already vettet and gunned up inf just rush forward and gain sight and the jackons zone out any tanks.... the only thing axis can do is to rush and flank the super moblie TD ... wich sounds funny or ? in 2v2 u can bring JT or Ele but it is counterd by Jacksons the time they hit the field...

so cut the range of the jacksons to 50 and let them flank like every super mobile TD have to.
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