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russian armor

reworking TD and giving them a role

7 Nov 2019, 18:51 PM
#41
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 149


Neither the p4 nor the p5 can return fire with allied TDs, both are prey.

You make it sound like they always stay at 50-60 range and are never close enough to allied TDs to fire back.
The jps job is to give you a unit that let's you fight back even if you are behind in fuel and can't take the initiative.

No, it's a tank destroyer that trades penetration for excellent vet aka survivability, accuracy and rate of fire. It's not supposed to be a clutch unit, otherwise every allied TD is also a clutch unit. When you are behind in armour department you get more AT and usually a combination of and AT gun and a snare is the cheapest defensive solution to enemy medium armour presence. If you can afford a full price TD to deal with enemy mediums it doesn't sound like you are much behind. You buy JP4 mostly to send allied TDs home for repairs and bully their mediums.
Again it's only issue is timing because you CAN save for the vaunted panther many will, but I feel if it was HQ in a 2 truck lock you may see more of it as the defensive unit its intended to be.

According to American doctrine during WW2, TDs were supposed to be used defensively ONLY, which means that Jackson should also be unlocked after 2 officers if you want JP4 to be unlocked after just 2 trucks for "defensive" reasons. I'm pretty sure it would be broken as fuck. Being able to deny enemy his advantage that he was fighting for and acquired during the game would be immediatelly disregarded by being able to build a "defensive" TD that suddenly evens the chances. I think it's not fair towards the person that managed to get the advantage in the first place.

It would make loss of Schwehr HQ less punishing too. If you doubt you can defend your Schwehr HQ, build it safe, there is no shame in doing so. Also Puma is surprisingly efficient vs mediums with its turret lock skill, smoke, 50 sight/range, high ROF and great mobility so if you are behind on fuel vs enemy medium tank, you can always try to use the Puma to at least scare away enemy medium, you don't even have to destroy it. If Panther can never fire back at allied TDs due to range difference, same is true with allied mediums vs Puma, especially that Puma self-spots. If for presented scenario you plan to comment on penetration difference between Puma and allied TDs, I am going to comment on Panther 50% more HP than allied mediums and higher ROF of Puma compared to allied TDs. Time-to-kill should be more or less equal in both scenarios, especially once Puma hits vet3 and has 160dmg per shot.

In 2v2+, JP4 is especially powerful in combination with KT, especially that KT can kill AT guns/infantry and JP4 can kill TDs. The most useful allied counter to this combo would be some soviet offmap, possibly AT assault started with tulips for high alfa dmg +stun/blind.

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Nov 2019, 14:48 PMmrgame2
About the sweet allies vet bonus, coincidence tightrope cast mentioned it here.

IS2 vs Panther.


In the vid you pasted we saw 3 shots total and something being said by tightrope that compares vet bonuses. Please, be aware that the range bonus IS2 gets at vet 2 only brings IS2 range equal to Panther Range. As far as I know, IS2 accuracy is lower than Panther's accuracy, so with accuracy bonus IS2 is likely still less accurate than Panther.

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Nov 2019, 16:55 PMHon3ynuts


The panther actually matches up poorly with the IS2 even if you factor in the difference in Mp/Fuel. An IS2 for only ~5 more popcap is anti everything squad wiping, but still beats the panther. Neither can really kill each other due to the high hp, but the Is2 will continue to have a large impact vs infantry regardless of the panther, unless it in fact blasting the panther.

Does anybody else have thoughts on the panther vs heavy Matchup?

1. IS2 is limited to 1 and available in 2 doctrines total, meanwhile Panther is stock and not limited.
2. Panther can chase IS2 but IS2 can't chase Panther due to mobility.
3. Until IS2 vet2 Panther has 10 range advantage over IS2.
4. Panther is more accurate than IS2 so IS2 is going to miss more shots and the duel is significantly more even than you might think.
5. If you complain about Panther MG DPS you should just stand still with it for a few seconds. Stationary tank deals ~double the damage vs infantry with machineguns than mobile tank due to moving/stationary accuracy. Per my understanding total MG DPS of Panther with pintle is about that of total MG DPS of P4 with pintle is about that of total MG DPS of T34 which is very good if stationary.

If you do think Panther should be better vs IS2 than it is now, please, run multitude of combat tests so we can all see how much better IS2 is in a tank fight than Panther.
7 Nov 2019, 19:42 PM
#42
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663



The panther's poor dps per supply is offset by its positive attributes like durability and ability to damage infantry(with its mgs).
It has great penetration and is reliable at damaging mid cost heavies like the kv8 and churchill.

It does not trade very well 1v1 with the IS2 as the IS2 is substantially more expensive in mp fuel and supply, but it can at least hold its ground for a time.

Panther penetration and dps are fine.


The problem is that being considered a TD it has less range and it's gun bounces quite a lot. It is a bit too expensive to have a gun that bounce agains heavy armour that much. If it was 60 range then ok.
7 Nov 2019, 20:27 PM
#43
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663



Does anybody else have thoughts on the panther vs heavy Matchup?


Simple: despite its high price and tech requirements it is a lesser threat to heavies than cheaper Jackson. It is especially sad against KV tanks etc.

Solution:
Option 1: make it cheaper
Option 2: increase range to 60
Option 3: make it more potent against infantry (remove pintle and add switchable ammo, for example)
Option 4: increase penetration so that heavies are more afraid of it
7 Nov 2019, 20:41 PM
#44
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3235 | Subs: 1

@blueknight Re: JP4 analysis. You are forgetting the original design of okw where the JP4 was in med truck. Even with the economy and tech rework the JP4 itself was mostly unchanged. It's still designed to be a strong AT unit to carry through losimg/not getting your schwere, it just comes later and along side the panther now. But it's design remains the same. It's stats very clearly depict its role. It's not a heavy tank counter, it's to be fighting allied TDs and not succumbing to frontal engagement. The only issue is that it comes too late
7 Nov 2019, 20:50 PM
#45
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663


... fight than Panther.


Range and health are more connected than you think. Panther needs to close in more to deal damage than other tank destroyers. That means it will be in range of more at weapons and will absorb more shots. Usually it means that it will have to retreat for repairs relatively quickly. This is where the real problem begins - panthers spent too much time repairing compared to other tank destroyers. When they charge they deal too little damage against heavies and absorb too much. They survive but their impact is just too small for how much tech and cost is involved to build them.
8 Nov 2019, 01:41 AM
#46
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 701



Same as the overhyped poor 4 men squads of ost. And poor axis penetration. The poor ost t4. Your are being a hypocrite now.


Hmm everything you said seems coincidence in that game cast. Wehr had to go 5 man doctrine, even then those vet 7 man cons held up really well against g43 Wehr. The panthers and stugs bouncing on is2 and isu

Sure eventually the 3 stugs manage kill the isu. Imo its down to panic clicks. You know times when you panic issue commands before the earlier one complete and your tank goes into a pathfinding confused loop. Besides the wehr player made good use of stugs micro and his 5 man helps against the zis. Is he the farlion here? Definitely a tough play to make

T4 did not perform in this game. Panther hasn't really countered enough of is2. A late brumbar did little use. Pwafer is the saving grace of t4 now
8 Nov 2019, 14:11 PM
#47
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6401 | Subs: 1

Another problem is current state of TDs is the combination of high base stat and high vet bonuses that end in ridiculous results:

SU-85
Accuracy 0.072/0.059/0.052 chance to hit PzIV 100%
Penetration 312/299/286 chance to penetrate Tiger 95.3%
ROF 4.57

M-36
Accuracy 0.065/0.059/0.046 chance to hit PzIV 100%
Penetration 338/312/286 chance to penetrate Tiger 95.3%
ROF 5.05

HAVP
Damage 200
Accuracy 0.078/0.065/0.052 chance to hit PzIV 100%
Penetration 390/364/325 chance to penetrate King Tiger 86.7%
ROF 5.53
8 Nov 2019, 15:34 PM
#48
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 701

I forgot to add about the overhyped and whatnot of maxim.

In this game, we see the soviet player did what is needed for maxim and he got minimal deathloop. Which is to reposition your maxim faster, make use of its fast unpack times and go! I mean if you just allow Wehr infantry to get close to kill your maxim, then it is not right. They have bad dps on the move and gets worse if dropping models on the way.

Of course, soviet was unlucky wehr player chose a uncommon 5 man doc for 2v2 and that helps a lot. If not, i can see the allies have the plan to maxim lock-out, zis cover and quick tech to IS2, ISU.

I mean crying about maxim deathloop, what about pak40? Wehr only 60TD and slowest ATG in the game, coming up against Allies infantry with more dps on the move....I mean maxim allows you fast unpack...really overhype in deathloop..
8 Nov 2019, 15:38 PM
#49
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 701

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Nov 2019, 14:11 PMVipper
Another problem is current state of TDs is the combination of high base stat and high vet bonuses that end in ridiculous results:

SU-85
Accuracy 0.072/0.059/0.052 chance to hit PzIV 100%
Penetration 312/299/286 chance to penetrate Tiger 95.3%
ROF 4.57

M-36
Accuracy 0.065/0.059/0.046 chance to hit PzIV 100%
Penetration 338/312/286 chance to penetrate Tiger 95.3%
ROF 5.05

HAVP
Damage 200
Accuracy 0.078/0.065/0.052 chance to hit PzIV 100%
Penetration 390/364/325 chance to penetrate King Tiger 86.7%
ROF 5.53


Yes i also dont understand logic that Jackson need such high powers because usf have no heavies.

But look at it. How do we define heavies now? I guess a unit that does AI and AT and more suriviability?

But but, armor is pretty irrelevant nowadays.

So something like Ace or Tiger or KT that is late, takes up lots of resources and slow. Are they such advantages that Usf lacks?

Heck the Tiger twins have pretty much poorer pen than 60TD..?
8 Nov 2019, 16:23 PM
#50
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 181

I have never been a fan of the pen increase at vet 2. I remember strictly stating when they were testing these changes that there pen was ridiculous and posted there new stats as well (even through they needed fixing back then).

Cutting down the pen bonus for the su85 and jackson to 10% or 15% would do. Maybe adjust the accuracy a bit on the jackson (Not sure what to do about the jackson).

On the panther, personally even through its accuracy has been buffed, I would like to see it not to really ever be able to miss a shot on heavy armour. Most frustrating when that happens, perhaps slightly reduce the cost but that's it. Just a tank Hunter that you can be sure you can dive against a heavy that won't miss (don't know what the current chances are atm).

I absolutely loathe the idea of increasing the Panthers pen (even if it's at vet) because 1. It's already high at 220/240/260 and 2. This is against one single vehical (is2) so if the pen was increase, all you bloody would be doing is creating the exact same problem with the allies heavies (kv1,kv2 is,Churchill and the comet). At a higher expense but the same problem.

8 Nov 2019, 16:37 PM
#51
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663

I have never been a fan of the pen increase at vet 2. I remember strictly stating when they were testing these changes that there pen was ridiculous and posted there new stats as well (even through they needed fixing back then).

Cutting down the pen bonus for the su85 and jackson to 10% or 15% would do. Maybe adjust the accuracy a bit on the jackson (Not sure what to do about the jackson).

On the panther, personally even through its accuracy has been buffed, I would like to see it not to really ever be able to miss a shot on heavy armour. Most frustrating when that happens, perhaps slightly reduce the cost but that's it. Just a tank Hunter that you can be sure you can dive against a heavy that won't miss (don't know what the current chances are atm).

I absolutely loathe the idea of increasing the Panthers pen (even if it's at vet) because 1. It's already high at 220/240/260 and 2. This is against one single vehical (is2) so if the pen was increase, all you bloody would be doing is creating the exact same problem with the allies heavies (kv1,kv2 is,Churchill and the comet). At a higher expense but the same problem.



Many of us believe that it is not too good that too many units have been buffed. I agree completely that it should be TDs that should be nerfed rather than panther buffed, but on this stage it will probably be easier to just tiny buff a panther
9 Nov 2019, 09:40 AM
#52
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3971

Can we go back on topic ?
11 Nov 2019, 08:09 AM
#53
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1820

it is more easier to stay in far range and snipe enemy armor than to flank with panther enemys line and take out his armor.

you need only some AI units and a penal and can be sure that no panther will dive in without your enemy risk a panther....you only need sight and can push into enemys line without to risk anythink with 60 range TDs with high penetration.

11 Nov 2019, 09:08 AM
#54
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13775 | Subs: 7

it is more easier to stay in far range and snipe enemy armor than to flank with panther enemys line and take out his armor.

There is not a single allied unit in this game that panther would have to flank.
In case you don't know, allies do not have anything like jagdtiger or elephant, which are pretty much iprevious from the front to any tank or TD.

you need only some AI units and a penal and can be sure that no panther will dive in without your enemy risk a panther....you only need sight and can push into enemys line without to risk anythink with 60 range TDs with high penetration.


And you need only some infantry AT units and an AT gun and can be sure no allied TD is allowed to snipe anything without risk to it.... you only need sight and can push into enemy line without having to risk anything with 60 range ATG with stun shots.
11 Nov 2019, 09:08 AM
#55
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663

I stand by my point. Stug should be 60 range. Everything should be much better balanced then.
11 Nov 2019, 09:20 AM
#56
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1820

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Nov 2019, 09:08 AMKatitof

There is not a single allied unit in this game that panther would have to flank.
In case you don't know, allies do not have anything like jagdtiger or elephant, which are pretty much iprevious from the front to any tank or TD.



And you need only some infantry AT units and an AT gun and can be sure no allied TD is allowed to snipe anything without risk to it.... you only need sight and can push into enemy line without having to risk anything with 60 range ATG with stun shots.


it is funny that you mention to get a 245/270 fuel unit to counter nondoc units.
lets guess you engage a ISU which can fight every target pretty well..which is supportet by a SU85 and a penal....no squad, no AT, no armor can be usefull in this case. you will need a ton of units and micro to handle this stuff.

axis has only AT 70 range units ...not very usefully vs squads

SU85 give 60 range view on targets...ISU snipe it out..penal is there you cant dive in without risk a satchel
11 Nov 2019, 09:25 AM
#57
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Nov 2019, 09:08 AMKatitof

There is not a single allied unit in this game that panther would have to flank.

That is not true. Most heavies regularly bounce panther's shots. Unlike axis heavies which almost never bounce jackson's, Fureflie's or SU85's shots. On top of that all the above are 60 range and are much cheaper (panther is 50 range and much more expensive). They also have abilities that help them even further like focus sight from su85, tulips on firefly, and self repairs plus extra shot on Jackson and better moving accuracy. They also get much better AT abilities with vet. Panther basically can be kited by them and must rush forwards exposing itself to AT fire. They can stay out of range.

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Nov 2019, 09:08 AMKatitof


In case you don't know, allies do not have anything like jagdtiger or elephant, which are pretty much iprevious from the front to any tank or TD.

What about isu152, kv series (especially with hull down), or is2? Different types of Churchill's, etc. Some of them are very good at both at and ai.


jump backJump back to quoted post11 Nov 2019, 09:08 AMKatitof

And you need only some infantry AT units and an AT gun and can be sure no allied TD is allowed to snipe anything without risk to it.... you only need sight and can push into enemy line without having to risk anything with 60 range ATG with stun shots.


Not true. The only stock axis unit that is even here is jagdanzer with 60range. The rest will be outranged by tank destroyers that can sit relatively safely behind lines and deal damage.
11 Nov 2019, 09:51 AM
#58
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13775 | Subs: 7


That is not true. Most heavies regularly bounce panther's shots. Unlike axis heavies which almost never bounce jackson's, Fureflie's or SU85's shots.

I'll assume you've never built KT. Unvetted TDs will also bounce off of regular tiger, take into account their lower, far penetration instead of high close penetration, because you'll almost always use them from afar - unlike panther.

On top of that all the above are 60 range and are much cheaper (panther is 50 range and much more expensive). They also have abilities that help them even further like focus sight from su85, tulips on firefly, and self repairs plus extra shot on Jackson and better moving accuracy. They also get much better AT abilities with vet. Panther basically can be kited by them and must rush forwards exposing itself to AT fire. They can stay out of range.

They all also have half the armor panther got and much less health. Panther got off guard can run away, allied TDs not really. Panther also got abilities to help it either chase or run away, both stock and doctrinal. OKW Panther with elite armor commander can deal massive damage with pretty much guaranteed penetration on anything lower then IS-2, ost Panther can chase/run away for much longer and has access to best tank smoke in game thorough meta doctrines.
Panthers are also useful vs infantry, while allied TDs can do absolutely nothing here.

What about isu152

Can be taken up frontally by panther.
kv series (especially with hull down)

Helpless, outranged.
or is2?

Outranged until vet2, if its vet2, you should have more then adequate AT on field to force it off, if you don't, you lose game way before that.

Different types of Churchill's, etc.

Outranged and not meant to be fended off by single panther altho it will do the job.
You need volume of fire against them, not reliable penetration.

Some of them are very good at both at and ai.

That's IS-2 exclusively.
You could argue ISU, but no one gets ISU for its AP shots.

Not true. The only stock axis unit that is even here is jagdanzer with 60range. The rest will be outranged by tank destroyers that can sit relatively safely behind lines and deal damage.

Tank destroyers are not meant to fight tank destroyers, however JP4 just so happens to be a hard counter to all allied TDs. Also, again, why don't you have any ATGs? They have the same range as TDs and keep TDs away, use them. If that's too hard, both axis factions have "you can now no longer use vehicle based AT" buttons in form of ELE and JT.
11 Nov 2019, 10:37 AM
#59
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3971

guys we are talking about rework not straight nerf or buffs now what's ur opinion about the damage solution ?
11 Nov 2019, 11:20 AM
#60
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6401 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Nov 2019, 09:51 AMKatitof

...
Tank destroyers are not meant to fight tank destroyers, however JP4 just so happens to be a hard counter to all allied TDs...

TD vs TD are actually quite common. For instance usually TDs are used against the Panther.
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