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russian armor

reworking TD and giving them a role

6 Nov 2019, 21:25 PM
#1
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3971

I think the solution to the problem we have now with various TD (x TD OP, y TD UP) is the lack of real role and specialization they have but I think that thanks to the latest rework of the panther and the shift to 960 hp a solution is possible.

-First let's start with the Jackson m36, this tank while having fairly balanced for stats has 1 big problem, it's ultra minmaxd with no real weakness other than the obvious ones (fast infatry), while being ultra efficient vs both medium and heavy tank (unlike other TD)

I thought of 3 solution, 1 a elegant rework, the other a nerf sadly and 1 a copy from the Sherman system:

1) change the damage back to 200 but nerf the reload, now before u bring out the pitch fork saying it would be useless like before i like to bring the latest rework for panther as to why now this viable, as they nerfed the panther armor but buffed the HP to 960, the advantage that a 200 damage shell gives is the possibility to balance a TD vs heavy while not destroying the medium match ups and it's very simple, a normal medium has 640 health so 4 shoot from a normal tank, with a 200 damage shell u would still need 4 shoot, now u would think this a straight nerf but, look at all other match ups for anything over the 640 threshold, panther 960 hp so 6 shoots but with 200 damage that's 5, 1 less, tiger 1040 hp so 7 shoots but with 200 damage it's 6 (or 5 and an at nade), and so on for higher hp, this even works against the JP4 as the vet gives it a total of 800 hp so 1 less shoot with 200 damage


2) straight nerf to the moving accuracy to 0.5 (normal tank) or 0.6 to give it a weakness on the move, or nerf to mobility in general or nerf to penetration or reload

3)another fun solution is round switching for medium and heavy tank similar to the Sherman, fast reload low pen and high pen and slow reload (or high damage)

I would like to say i don't like the other 2 but it's becoming unhealthy for the game to have a 1 trick pony TD

-Now next JP4

This unit is another considered OP or UP and i understand both reasoning, like the m36 this tank it's trying to fulfill 2 roles at the same time, a medium TD but with heavy armor, making it expensive but very mediocre to other unit in the roster

Again we need to give it a role and i think removing the frontal armor is the only way:
1)nerf the frontal armor to 150-160 (-80,-70) and buff the gun penetration by 50 at all ranges and maybe change damage to 200 while nerfing the reload (same as jackson)

2)nerf the frontal armor to 150-160 (-80,-70) and reduce the price to around 340mp and 100 fuel

Both gives it a clear role similar to stug (cheap td) or su 85 (heavy TD)

-Su 85

While i think this unit is fine it could use a rework like the jackson to be more effective against heavy but a bit less effective vs mediums letting the su 76 be used more (as it was intended)

-FF

Like the su 85 i think this unit is fine but i would shift the power budget from the rockets to the main gun, nerfing the rocket damage and reducing the cost but making the main gun reload faster , making it more consistent

-STUG

This units is again a bit problematic especially the vet, for 1 i would make it have 640 hp instead of 560 if the changes to 200 damage shell goes through so it does not get instakilled, change the vet 1 ability as it has been nerfed to the ground (heat shell for 5 more range and 20% more pen for munitions similar to the jackson or the soviet ambush TD) and change the vet 2 from armor to HP by 80 hp so mediums and at guns take 1 more shoot (or 2 at nade) but the new TDs (with 200 damage) still take 4


6 Nov 2019, 21:31 PM
#2
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 87

-give stug the same shell with ai properties that p4 uses
-move p4 to t4
-move werfer to t3
ez pz ostheer fixerizi



HiGh ExPloSiVe !!
6 Nov 2019, 21:41 PM
#3
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13777 | Subs: 7

I thought TDs had a role?
You know, destroying tanks and stuff? :snfPeter:
6 Nov 2019, 21:46 PM
#4
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3971

I thought TDs had a role?
You know, destroying tanks and stuff? :snfPeter:
some serious feedback for once ?
6 Nov 2019, 22:46 PM
#5
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4492

I thought TDs had a role?
You know, destroying tanks and stuff? :snfPeter:


Nah their intended role is to be destroyed by superior German steel. Due to a bug, they have very high penetration, which often results in them accidentally killing German steel. :hansREKT:
6 Nov 2019, 23:12 PM
#6
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3235 | Subs: 1

I like most of the changes but think you missed the mark on the JP4. I get where it's coming from but the JP4 isn't supposed to be a heavy TD. It's a very defensive option for a very offensive faction and imo it's only problem is timing not performance.

But vehicle by vehcle- I'd like to see either the shell swap or the 200 damage change as they manage to keep the spirit of the unit without just gutting it.

Su85 I think needs to lose some initial pen. When it was buffed it got a huge pen increase AND a massive vet change (ROF to loads of pen) and ideally have its focus sight changed to vet or perhaps a timed ability--self spotting 60 range units are not great balance.

Firefly it's been suggested before and I think it would be interesting to tie the tulips to hammer and make the firefly useful independent of them and balance them separately than an always available ability.

StuG Im not certain and it would depend entirely on the direction the other TDs took.

Great and well thought out thread tho GJ.
6 Nov 2019, 23:37 PM
#7
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3971

But for that u have the panther , jp4 overlap roles it has high armour when it's really not needed has u already have p4 and p5
6 Nov 2019, 23:49 PM
#8
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13777 | Subs: 7

But for that u have the panther , jp4 overlap roles it has high armour when it's really not needed has u already have p4 and p5

For high penetration you also have the panther.
What are you going to do about that?
You can't ignore its existence and intended targets for both axis factions and keep your suggestions pretending it doesn't exist.

For any suggestion to buf JP4/StuG pen you'd have to come with equally strong suggestion on how to diminish panthers role in that.
6 Nov 2019, 23:54 PM
#9
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 575

I thought TDs had a role?
You know, destroying tanks and stuff? :snfPeter:


It does which is why this endless whinning about TDs especially the Jackson, is so inane. Why shouldn't tank destroyers be effective against ugh you know, tanks? Light, medium, or otherwise.

If you noticed the OP is praising armor/hitpoint buffs made to Panther while asking for more nerfs to Allied TDs. There are some half-hearted nerfs being asked of the jagpanzer, a redundant OKW unit they don't even need in the first place and rarely use. Nerfing a Jagpanzer isn't like nerfing the Jackson because USF actually needs the Jackson.
7 Nov 2019, 00:41 AM
#10
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 816

Some thoughts:
Making the Jp4 cheaper would be a neat way to differentiate it from the heavier panther.

I really like the SU85, both using it and going against it b/c it has clear strengths and weaknesses so I would prefer to avoid changing that one.

I do like the idea of focusing on the Firefly main gun, it's still super good with the rockets, but that can be a heavy investment.

One issue I would point out is that for Most of these factions there is only 1 TD and if it fails in it's job you basically have no way to stop heavy tanks. It would be easier to differentiate these units if every faction had an M10 like unit stock. Just look at how different the panther and StugG are with ostheer having t3 and 4. It would be ideal to have different options like that for everybody.
7 Nov 2019, 00:57 AM
#11
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 879

I mean, there’s light AT options for everyone, the dynamic of light and heavy TD is there.

Su76 for soviets
Puma for OKW
M10 for USF
AEC for Brits
Go fuck yourself for Ostheer
7 Nov 2019, 01:11 AM
#12
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 816

I mean, there’s light AT options for everyone, the dynamic of light and heavy TD is there.

Su76 for soviets - Works vs mediums for the price but poor vs actual light vehicle due to poor mobility.
Puma for OKW - Gold standard of anti LV, Fine vs Mediums for the price
M10 for USF - only 1 doctrine but fits the anti Medium mold perfectly :*(
AEC for Brits - Annoying vs mediums but not super efficient. Unfortunately no other light vehicles for brits to do the other stuff.
Go fuck yourself for Ostheer - But what about the scout car :rofl:


I was thinking more anti mediums but there are shades of grey in all those. Ostheer at least has the Stug which is above average anti all vehicles, but not great vs any type.
7 Nov 2019, 02:18 AM
#13
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3235 | Subs: 1

But for that u have the panther , jp4 overlap roles it has high armour when it's really not needed has u already have p4 and p5

Neither the p4 nor the p5 can return fire with allied TDs, both are prey. The jps job is to give you a unit that let's you fight back even if you are behind in fuel and can't take the initiative. Its armour means it's not toast if attacked by mediums and its range means its not zoned by TDs. Imo for the okw its a great unit just because how expensive their armour is. Again it's only issue is timing because you CAN save for the vaunted panther many will, but I feel if it was HQ in a 2 truck lock you may see more of it as the defensive unit its intended to be.
7 Nov 2019, 02:49 AM
#14
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1680

I agree with most suggestions, but i still think Jacksons HP should be reverted to 480. You can nerf panthers speed in return.

I find hilarious that CODGUY tries to mimic katitof.
7 Nov 2019, 03:40 AM
#15
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1537


1) change the damage back to 200 but nerf the reload, now before u bring out the pitch fork saying it would be useless like before i like to bring the latest rework for panther as to why now this viable, as they nerfed the panther armor but buffed the HP to 960, the advantage that a 200 damage shell gives is the possibility to balance a TD vs heavy while not destroying the medium match ups and it's very simple, a normal medium has 640 health so 4 shoot from a normal tank, with a 200 damage shell u would still need 4 shoot, now u would think this a straight nerf but, look at all other match ups for anything over the 640 threshold, panther 960 hp so 6 shoots but with 200 damage that's 5, 1 less, tiger 1040 hp so 7 shoots but with 200 damage it's 6 (or 5 and an at nade), and so on for higher hp, this even works against the JP4 as the vet gives it a total of 800 hp so 1 less shoot with 200 damage


Im with you here. I really dont think it comes across as a straight nerf regardless of how anyone tries to spin it. 200dmg with lower ROF is a buff with an offsetting nerf. Anybody with half a brain should be able to see that as a style change

The original change to 160 and higher ROF was also a style change, but the ROF was simply lowered too much

Only thing is 200dmg can still be a change for mediums. 1 M36 vs 1 P4 it doesnt change anything, but add literally anything else to the fight and that P4 will die faster. 1 penetrating ptrs shot and that p4 is dying in 3 more shots from the Jackson. In team games the Jackson might still dominate the same way it does now. Just something to consider
7 Nov 2019, 04:12 AM
#16
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 701

To me, now is not possible for major changes.

But let identify problems with 60TD vs axis.

Imo is their vet bonus. Allies vet bonus seem to outpace axis at this moment. Especially if you take 60TD vs axis armor.

As such, the tweaks should focus on allies vet bonus reduction. Even the regular sherman got sweet vet bonuses compared to p4.

Now the arguement is because JT, Elefant and KT got super front armor, that 60TD needs to vet superbly. But i disagree.

These 3 tanks have bad motion, have reduced rear armour. What's wrong with allies taking more effort to position their 60TD to hit their side/rear armor?

Why does it be ok for axis to make extra micro to fight allies heavies?

As such, please reduce allies vet bonus and see how. 60TD simply outpace axis counterparts in the long game
7 Nov 2019, 04:18 AM
#17
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 701

And yes stug is badly position now. A simple removal of TWP with more useful vet like heat rounds..
7 Nov 2019, 07:58 AM
#18
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3971

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Nov 2019, 23:54 PMCODGUY


It does which is why this endless whinning about TDs especially the Jackson, is so inane. Why shouldn't tank destroyers be effective against ugh you know, tanks? Light, medium, or otherwise.

If you noticed the OP is praising armor/hitpoint buffs made to Panther while asking for more nerfs to Allied TDs. There are some half-hearted nerfs being asked of the jagpanzer, a redundant OKW unit they don't even need in the first place and rarely use. Nerfing a Jagpanzer isn't like nerfing the Jackson because USF actually needs the Jackson.
if u actually tried to read for once u would see they are not nerf it's a simple shift in role
7 Nov 2019, 14:48 PM
#19
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 701

About the sweet allies vet bonus, coincidence tightrope cast mentioned it here.

IS2 vs Panther.

It is time to review Wehr stock units vet bonus, armor needs to change to 50% armor 50% hp perhaps.

I mean if Panther is IS2 counter, then it gets left behind once both vet up...see thats my findings...

https://youtu.be/GlpieWJnxHk?t=2264
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