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russian armor

On the M4A3E8

31 Oct 2019, 22:47 PM
#1
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 465

I had a big long thread typed up, hit F5 by accident and lost everything. I'm not going to waste another 30 or so minutes of my life today typing it up again, so I will make this quick. This tank has been brought up a ton recently, was nerfed several patches ago, and quite frankly is not good. It is described as a generalist tank, but cannot function like one, as its reload time is the worst of any medium tank in the game by a good margin and also it has the worst AOE distance values of any medium tank besides the Panther.

The typical responses given are "muh armor" and "muh 720 HP"
I have tested this unit against the OKW P4, which costs the exact same, and in every engagement the M4A3E8 wins by the grace of God or the devil alone, since both vehicles bounce off of each other so constantly.

But this wouldn't be a generalist tank if we didn't examine anti-infantry capability, so here you are.

Anti-infantry tests

Panzer 4J:




T-34/76:





Panther:




(finally fucking hit something)

Panther (MGs upgraded. Note the M4A3E8's MG attachment costs more than even any of the other Sherman MGs despite being the exact same thing. Epic.):





Versus P4 head on (tank v tank)
Highlights:








Rifle company is actually half-decent, and so I'm tired of hearing that as the stupid excuse for why people say they never see this tank, or because "everything else is too good and needs nerfing etc".

This tank cannot kill infantry effectively, it is slower and more sluggish handling than any of the tanks
it competes against, and banks on it having 80 hp more and a higher chance of bouncing P4 shots when it comes to buying this thing (a Panther will still penetrate it at all ranges 100% of the time, not to mention outfight it in general with better health, armor, and ROF.) It's saving grace would be that it is at least better than the regular M4A3 at fighting Panzer IVs, but it is still only barely capable of doing that.

If they could at least lower the gun's reload time to be equal to the M4 Sherman, that'd be nice. As it is there is no point in building the E8 since it's about as effective as an upgraded Panther is versus infantry, and barely any more effective versus armored targets than a M4A3. One could also raise the AOE distance; you could even nerf the scatter in such a way to make the shot be identical to the Panzer IV's. That would be an improvement.

The idea of this being some hidden gem in the USF roster overshadowed by the M4A3 and M36 respectively is a joke, no matter what you think of those two units.
31 Oct 2019, 23:07 PM
#2
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3229 | Subs: 1

From a 1v1 perspective primarily:

I'm not attacking you, but for the entireity of my time on this forum, I have said USF tanks have been good, too good, or the top meta picks of tanks. I honestly cannot remember a single USF medium+ class tank that I can actually call not worth it in every situation possible, where something else may be better. And the entire time I've thought this people have always said they're worse than axis counterparts. I feel like it is always a case of "the grass is greener" in my eyes. The game has received nothing but absolute powercreep for the last 3 years. The reworking of doctrines to have everything you could ever want, consistant buffs to USF for 3 straight years to the point where the faction has become OP and nothing but buffs and more toys for the WFA + UKF in general.

The EZ8 is honestly a good tank that can slug it out and win vs an OKW p4 and win consistantly for the same price in fuel. I'm not really sure what you want it to do. Be as good in the AI department and better in AT than the OKW p4 at the same price? The 34/85 already does that at cheaper, which is why it can seem lackluster. The HE sherman is the pinacle of AI medium tank that can still tussel with armor, and the jackson is the undisputed king of TDs, despite its nonexistant nerf.

So what I'm trying to say is, other stuff gets buffed so much that things like the EZ8 get left behind, and then we try and buff the original stuff up to those levels, then buff the stock units etc and it's just a awful cycle of playing wack-a-mole.
31 Oct 2019, 23:14 PM
#3
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 465

From a 1v1 perspective primarily:

I'm not attacking you, but for the entireity of my time on this forum, I have said USF tanks have been good, too good, or the top meta picks of tanks. I honestly cannot remember a single USF medium+ class tank that I can actually call not worth it in every situation possible, where something else may be better. And the entire time I've thought this people have always said they're worse than axis counterparts. I feel like it is always a case of "the grass is greener" in my eyes. The game has received nothing but absolute powercreep for the last 3 years. The reworking of doctrines to have everything you could ever want, consistant buffs to USF for 3 straight years to the point where the faction has become OP and nothing but buffs and more toys for the WFA + UKF in general.

The EZ8 is honestly a good tank that can slug it out and win vs an OKW p4 and win consistantly for the same price in fuel. I'm not really sure what you want it to do. Be as good in the AI department and better in AT than the OKW p4 at the same price? The 34/85 already does that at cheaper, which is why it can seem lackluster. The HE sherman is the pinacle of AI medium tank that can still tussel with armor, and the jackson is the undisputed king of TDs, despite its nonexistant nerf.

So what I'm trying to say is, other stuff gets buffed so much that things like the EZ8 get left behind, and then we try and buff the original stuff up to those levels, then buff the stock units etc and it's just a awful cycle of playing wack-a-mole.


The E8/P4 matchup is highlighted in this thread and in my last few paragraphs.
I'm sorry if you feel USF is OP, but I'll be damned if the E8 was ever a meta pick in this game and I have already highlighted that it has worse AI performance and middling AT performance, particularly compared to the 140 fuel P4 it competes with. That in itself has absolutely nothing to do with the real or supposed OP-ness of the M4A3 or M36 - it has to do with this tank not being good, and until evidence is delivered to the contrary, that will remain my position.

I mean, building a tank directly to combat the P4, even if it was particularly good at that, sounds a lot like the role of a tank destroyer, regardless of how good the M36 is right now. And yet, compared to a M4A3, this vehicle is no better versus any other Axis armor. It is also miles worse than any of the medium tanks besides perhaps the Cromwell versus infantry, so I could hardly say it has an effective reserve use versus infantry to go with it's dedicated anti-P4 role.

All this you can test yourself. If this thing had the exact same gun as the PIV, I think people would actually buy it, even if that means an overall nerf to near penetration on the gun, just because it would actually function as the generalist it supposedly is. Right now it is not good regardless of its in-roster competition, and that is exactly the point I attempted to illustrate with these tests.

I want this unit to actually be a viable generalist and not the "Panzer IV and nothing else" counter it apparently is presently, as that does not sound like a particularly sturdy position for a 140 fuel investment. It doesn't have to have better AI than the M4A3, or as good AT as the M36, just has to be able to actually do its job. I would welcome making this an OKW P4 clone if that makes it actually useful.
31 Oct 2019, 23:28 PM
#4
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 149

I only use E8 on maps or in places where I can't fight with Jacksons because of short fighting distances (Eindhoven ruins). Pintle MG upgrade is absolutely necessary to compensate for the otherwise poor AI (main gun). It's not a bad tank at all with decent armour and the damage breakdown making it a 5-shot kill, but the penetration is not enough to fight anything heavy and the AI capabilities are not the selling point either. Tbh I still prefer E8 over T34/85, but neither of these tanks is quite as important as other doc abilities like calliope, IS2, arty, elite infantry, etc.

E8 would be decent choice in 1v1 as it doesn't get pushed around by P4s and an enemy would actually need a Panther, which takes some popcap and is not very good vs infantry as well.
31 Oct 2019, 23:32 PM
#5
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3995

Try it on the move it has almost no scatter making it a wipe machine on retreat , normal tanks have 2,0 scatter
31 Oct 2019, 23:33 PM
#6
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 465

Try it on the move it has almost no scatter making it a wipe machine on retreat , normal tanks have 2,0 scatter


And it has better scatter standing still and had the performance pictured here.
31 Oct 2019, 23:34 PM
#7
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3995

Try any tank on the move then try the easy 8, u will see normal tanks can barely hit so something
31 Oct 2019, 23:37 PM
#8
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 465

Try any tank on the move then try the easy 8, u will see normal tanks can barely hit so something


Normal tanks also have better AOE distance, and the scatter is still worse than standing still, which produced the results pictured above.
31 Oct 2019, 23:37 PM
#9
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13793 | Subs: 7

Try it on the move it has almost no scatter making it a wipe machine on retreat , normal tanks have 2,0 scatter

Like any other USF tank.
Also, tanks move faster then retreating inf, quick stop tap to shoot isn't hard to pull off if there is nothing protecting that retreat.
31 Oct 2019, 23:40 PM
#10
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3995

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 23:37 PMKatitof

Like any other USF tank.
Also, tanks move faster then retreating inf, quick stop tap to shoot isn't hard to pull off if there is nothing protecting that retreat.
easy 8 has futher lower scatter, to represent the new horizontal suspension
31 Oct 2019, 23:56 PM
#11
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 910

The unit itself is more than fine, it’s the doctrine that sucks.
31 Oct 2019, 23:57 PM
#12
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13793 | Subs: 7

easy 8 has futher lower scatter, to represent the new horizontal suspension

So...

Umm...

Tell me more on how 0.75 scatter of EZ8 is better then 0.75 scatter of regular sherman or 0.75 scatter of 76mm sherman, I'll listen :snfPeter::snfPeter::snfPeter:
31 Oct 2019, 23:59 PM
#13
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3229 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 23:57 PMKatitof

So...

Umm...

Tell me more on how 0.75 scatter of EZ8 is better then 0.75 scatter of regular sherman or 0.75 scatter of 76mm sherman, I'll listen :snfPeter::snfPeter::snfPeter:


easy 8 has futher lower scatter, to represent the new horizontal suspension


Please do not fully derail this thread. This could be a valuable thread. :)
1 Nov 2019, 00:01 AM
#14
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3995

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Oct 2019, 23:57 PMKatitof

So...

Umm...

Tell me more on how 0.75 scatter of EZ8 is better then 0.75 scatter of regular sherman or 0.75 scatter of 76mm sherman, I'll listen :snfPeter::snfPeter::snfPeter:
cause it's not like that ?

Normal Sherman has 1,5 Easy 8 has around 1,3 normal tanks have 2

Btw if u want try switch okw p4 for easy 8 I'm 100% sure the doc would die
1 Nov 2019, 00:20 AM
#15
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 816

It's good against vehicles, but only some vehicles where the high armor is helpful. The reload is 6.55 seconds and the Penetration is only ~165 which is horrible and above average respectively.

I don't think it's terrible but I think it could have some lateral adjustments so it can find a niche where it fits better.

Making it more like the Comet or Panther with increase price and performance would probably be the easiest way to provide a more interesting choice for USF players. If you leave the Price as is it's probably going to be overshadowed by the AI sherman or the AT Jackson if its performance is "Balanced"
1 Nov 2019, 00:32 AM
#16
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1279 | Subs: 2

E8 is good.
Just that the stock Sherman is better AI and Jackson is better AT, so it's not worth a doctrinal pic unless you want to use it, since doctrinally you could get a Sturmsherman, Pershing or Rocket Artillery.
1 Nov 2019, 00:46 AM
#17
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 465

It's good against vehicles, but only some vehicles where the high armor is helpful. The reload is 6.55 seconds and the Penetration is only ~165 which is horrible and above average respectively.

I don't think it's terrible but I think it could have some lateral adjustments so it can find a niche where it fits better.

Making it more like the Comet or Panther with increase price and performance would probably be the easiest way to provide a more interesting choice for USF players. If you leave the Price as is it's probably going to be overshadowed by the AI sherman or the AT Jackson if its performance is "Balanced"


E8 is good.
Just that the stock Sherman is better AI and Jackson is better AT, so it's not worth a doctrinal pic unless you want to use it, since doctrinally you could get a Sturmsherman, Pershing or Rocket Artillery.


The sole vehicle that this unit is effectively better at countering than the M4A3 is the Panzer IV, which it will still fail to consistently penetrate at realistic combat ranges. Because it has a far lower ROF it is worse versus anything with less armor, like a Stug, and it has worse mobility to boot.

And the AI is not simply "not as good" as P4 or M4A3, it is horrible and barely beats out the Panther in tests. This is not the mark of an effective general medium tank and I am bewildered than anyone would defend this thing for anything other than being able to tank a single extra shot (80hp, so from almost anything: snare, mine, hhAT, etc)

I am going to remove spoilers from the images so people are forced to see them and say this is good performance..
1 Nov 2019, 00:47 AM
#18
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 566

OKW P4 vs. USF E8. Things the E8 has better are in bold, since a + isn't always a good thing.

Defensive
+1 target size
+0.1 speed
+0.1 accel
+2 rotate

-19 front armor
+15 rear armor
+80hp


Main Cannon
+75/50/45 pen
-0.5m Aoe radius
-0.25m "80 dmg distance"
+0.8 reload speed
+0.25 moving accuracy
-1.5 scatter angle
+0.075 distance offset
+0.14 distance max

Hull MG
-2.5dps at all ranges

Coax MG
-0.5dps to -2dps at all ranges

Turret MG
Better dps at 4-15m, worse at 0-3m, 16-35m



To me, that seems like a fair trade. The P4 has better AI power (but not much), while the E8 has better AT power. The E8 has the benefit of 50% better moving accuracy and a vehicle crew, too. Overall, I wouldn't change anything; getting 3x E8s can be devastating, due to their ability to chase.
1 Nov 2019, 00:54 AM
#19
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1079

Ez8 isn't supposed to be very good vs inf. It's mainly a brawler AT tank with 200+ armor and 800 health and a gun that always pen all ost mediums basically 100%. A step up from the T34/85 in every way except inf killing power.
1 Nov 2019, 00:54 AM
#20
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 465

OKW P4 vs. USF E8. Things the E8 has better are in bold, since a + isn't always a good thing.

Defensive
+1 target size
+0.1 speed
+0.1 accel
+2 rotate
+19/15 armor
+80hp


Main Cannon
+75/50/45 pen
-0.5m Aoe radius
-0.25m "80 dmg distance"
+0.8 reload speed
+0.25 moving accuracy
-1.5 scatter angle
+0.075 distance offset
+0.14 distance max

Hull MG
-2.5dps at all ranges

Coax MG
-0.5dps to -2dps at all ranges

Turret MG
Better dps at 4-15m, worse at 0-3m, 16-35m



To me, that seems like a fair trade. The P4 has better AI power (but not much), while the E8 has better AT power. The E8 has the benefit of 50% better moving accuracy and a vehicle crew, too.


The difference in reload speed is actually between 1.3 and 0.7 iirc, and your armor stat is backwards as the OKW P4 has 234 armor compared to E8 215, and 90 rear armor compared to E8 95.

Further, with all due respect for your dilligence in providing a stat sheet, the P4 in tests has remarkably better AI performance, a cheaper MG upgrade, and on the topic of factional bonuses, an ability that grants it both better accuracy and mobility (combat blitz).

The trade seems to be 80 hp and marginally better alpha pen, but worse DPS against most vehicle or infantry targets.
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