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russian armor

My Proposal to change Allied TDs

3 Nov 2019, 20:26 PM
#61
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 465

Vipper is often disingenuous at best and deliberately misrepresents information at worst, but he is right about the 76mm Sherman tbh. With veterancy and Radio net it possesses the fastest ROF of any tank in the game (with regular shot, not the improved AP). Stock it (and the Soviet M4C) still may also still be the fastest at 4.something seconds on the reload time.

However, this talk of rebalancing allied TDs is hopeless because half the people who want them nerfed want them to be nerfed because they think their Panthers and Tigers should be an instant "I win" button on the battlefield, immune to damage from all but RNGesus, and thus lose penetration, and the other half want them to be nerfed because they are too effective versus medium tanks, requiring completely difference balance changes. The latter concern regarding medium tanks is IMO a legitimate concern but also hard to actualize, and is partisanly presented as a completely one-way street since nobody is willing to tackle the Panther in turn, which is even harder to fight with medium tanks than any of the allied TDs and requires allied TD deployment to fight off in the first place.
3 Nov 2019, 20:32 PM
#62
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 569

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Nov 2019, 19:43 PMEsxile

  • USF could use two different types of Atgun (like in Coh1), one on T2 (better stat, no need munition) and the actual unlock after T3.


The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that this is the ONLY viable solution. The entire TD issue revolves around USF having essentially one viable non-doc AT solution, since the M1 doesn't have the pen to go against axis heavies. This has resulted in the M36 being the de-facto AT solution for literally every unit, which means it needs to be viable against opponents as tough as the Ele/JT.

As far as I'm concerned, there are two ways of implementing this idea. The USF AT hierarchy can be either M1 -> M36 -> BigATG or M1 -> BigATG -> M36. If it's the former, the M36 needs to be nerfed down to STuG levels, with a comparable price reduction; if it's the later, the M36 needs its price increased to panther levels (i.e. +40f) with no real performance buffs. Then we slide in an ATG into that new performance-slot, with performance/price being a copy of the Pak/6lb.

Once that's done, we can adjust the panther down a bit, so that the price/perf matchup of the M36/Panther actually makes sense.

Regardless of what happens, this type of gameplay is exhausting, and the opposite of what CoH is supposed to be about.
3 Nov 2019, 20:37 PM
#63
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13803 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Nov 2019, 19:43 PMEsxile

USF could use two different types of Atgun (like in Coh1), one on T2 (better stat, no need munition) and

My CoH1 memory is quite foggy, but I'm quite positive they had just 1 ATG, just like any other faction(except PE who had no ATG at all).
3 Nov 2019, 20:57 PM
#64
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2731

The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that this is the ONLY viable solution. The entire TD issue revolves around USF having essentially one viable non-doc AT solution, since the M1 doesn't have the pen to go against axis heavies. This has resulted in the M36 being the de-facto AT solution for literally every unit, which means it needs to be viable against opponents as tough as the Ele/JT.


What about M1 » M10 » M36?

The M10 goes in T3, the Jackson goes up to 180ish FU but gets 70 range.
3 Nov 2019, 21:27 PM
#65
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6445 | Subs: 1

The problem of the M36 is that when it was buffed it vs everything:
HP more durable vs all targets
Damage from 200-160 faster ROF better vs mediums since no more overkill and less time to kill them.
More penetration better vs Heavies/Super heavies because of less bounces.

One could test keeping the HP and reverting the damage/ROF/Penetration changes and see how it goes.
3 Nov 2019, 21:28 PM
#66
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 569

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Nov 2019, 20:57 PMLago
What about M1 » M10 » M36?

The M10 goes in T3, the Jackson goes up to 180ish FU but gets 70 range.


The M10 could also work, although it would mean replacing it with something else in armor company. Really, it's just about giving USF an intermediate AT solution, which they're currently lacking.


70 range on the M36 would be too much; that would put it out at the same range as the Elefant (720mp/240f/doc locked), who's main weakness is being incredibly slow, and not having a turret. A 70-range M36 would just kite every single tank in the game, even more so than it does now.
3 Nov 2019, 21:45 PM
#67
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2731

The M10 could also work, although it would mean replacing it with something else in armor company. Really, it's just about giving USF an intermediate AT solution, which they're currently lacking.


70 range on the M36 would be too much; that would put it out at the same range as the Elefant (720mp/240f/doc locked), who's main weakness is being incredibly slow, and not having a turret. A 70-range M36 would just kite every single tank in the game, even more so than it does now.


Alternatively, you could nerf the shit out of all the heavies's ranges.

Panther and all the generalist heavies down to 40 range, Jackson down to 480 HP.

The Jackson'd then counter heavy armour as intended by outranging it, but be more vulnerable when closed on by a medium.

Jacksons in turn would be countered by StuGs and JPIVs.
3 Nov 2019, 22:07 PM
#68
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 569

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Nov 2019, 21:45 PMLago

Alternatively, you could nerf the shit out of all the heavies's ranges.
Panther and all the generalist heavies down to 40 range, Jackson down to 480 HP.

The Jackson'd then counter heavy armour as intended by outranging it, but be more vulnerable when closed on by a medium.

Jacksons in turn would be countered by StuGs and JPIVs.


All heavies already have between 40 to 45 range, with the exception of the Ele/JT/ISU-152. Nerfing those to 40 range would make them unusable, since they're such incredibly slow units; flanking them would become trivial.

As for the Panther, it's a medium TD, like the M36 - it just has more HP/armor than the M36 due to its much higher price.

3 Nov 2019, 22:43 PM
#69
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3258 | Subs: 1

70 range Jackson? Lol OK.... It's powerful enough with 60 range and top of class... Every other trait, but giving it elefant/JT levels of range too? OK.....
4 Nov 2019, 08:24 AM
#70
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2610 | Subs: 1


My CoH1 memory is quite foggy, but I'm quite positive they had just 1 ATG, just like any other faction(except PE who had no ATG at all).


Airborn ATgun was a different version than Stock one. Anyway, with the actual USF design, the only solution is to give USF another hard AT dealer or to fight mediums or to fight heavy. Relic fucked it up with their design when they re-do Sherman model, a solution like in Coh1 to upgrade basic sherman would have solve us a lot of headache.

Imo my Solution still stand:
Swap Sherman M4A3 with Ez8 as stock. Ez8 become the superior stock medium tank in game and at the same time re-do the Jackson: increase reload time so it is dedicated to counter Panthers and bigger cats.

It would perfectly fit the current faction design:

Ostheer has Stug in T3 as stop gap vs the Ez8 (can be use in pair)or have better reason to rush a panther. And also still have Pzshrek as good option since the Ez8 has less AI.
OKW has the Panther and Jpz4 which are already natural counter to the Ez8

USF lose a stock IA tank so less pressure on Axis Faction early on, Ez8 could use a bit of buff on AI but nothing close to the M4A3. Ez4 also comes later since it cost more.
Scott would have a real role as AI dedicated late game unit (maybe give him a coaxial HMG).

M4A3 into Rifle Company also fit the commander vision as it is a infantry support tank. Price could be adjusted accordingly.
4 Nov 2019, 09:02 AM
#71
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 335

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Nov 2019, 17:57 PMLago


He's right in that a Vet 3 Sherman 76 with level 3 Radio Net and Combined Arms has an absolutely mental rate of fire.

But it's so difficult to assemble that combo that I'm not really worried by it.


Yet what you just posted is flat out wrong

Combined arms does not stack on top of veterency
4 Nov 2019, 09:21 AM
#72
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1



Yet what you just posted is flat out wrong

Combined arms does not stack on top of veterency


This has been fixed some time ago (allegedly by Mr. Smith when he was still in the patch team). CA bonusses stack with veterancy, bulletins, radio net and other bonusses now.

Here's a simple video showcasing old vet 3 Pershing firerate with and without CA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-t8XVC6-iJs

Vet 3 Pershing + CA shot 14 shells in 45 seconds. 0:03
Vet 3 Pershing shot 11 shells in 45 seconds. 1:03
5 Nov 2019, 16:46 PM
#73
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 577

70 range Jackson? Lol OK.... It's powerful enough with 60 range and top of class... Every other trait, but giving it elefant/JT levels of range too? OK.....


Yeah it's fine NOW but we're talking about nerfing it to shit.
5 Nov 2019, 17:01 PM
#74
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2731

70 range Jackson? Lol OK.... It's powerful enough with 60 range and top of class... Every other trait, but giving it elefant/JT levels of range too? OK.....


70 range Jackson with 480 HP. That's a three shot kill like a light vehicle.
5 Nov 2019, 17:18 PM
#75
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 932

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2019, 17:01 PMLago


70 range Jackson with 480 HP. That's a three shot kill like a light vehicle.


And how are you gonna shoot at it?
5 Nov 2019, 17:39 PM
#76
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6445 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2019, 17:01 PMLago


70 range Jackson with 480 HP. That's a three shot kill like a light vehicle.

Stock units, not limited to 1, with a DPS vs mediums better than Elephant close to half the cost and the same range is not actually a good idea, regardless of armor/HP...
5 Nov 2019, 18:11 PM
#77
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663

Just make it more expensive. They are just too cheap for what they do. The price should reflect the range, turret, speed, health, and self repairs. Idk why they are so much cheaper than a panther.

Option 2 would be to remove some abilities from them and make them cheap. You could simply make them slower or remove crews, etc. It is simple.
5 Nov 2019, 18:32 PM
#78
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2731

And how are you gonna shoot at it?


The same way you shoot at the 60 range Jackson.
5 Nov 2019, 18:35 PM
#79
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 272

"Vipper is often disingenuous at best and deliberately misrepresents information at worst"

"However, this talk of rebalancing allied TDs is hopeless because half the people who want them nerfed want them to be nerfed because they think their Panthers and Tigers should be an instant "I win" button on the battlefield, immune to damage from all but RNGesus" and thus lose penetration"


People in glass houses shouldnt throw stones. If vipper did a test he would certainly have a sample size larger than 1.
5 Nov 2019, 20:28 PM
#80
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3258 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Nov 2019, 18:32 PMLago


The same way you shoot at the 60 range Jackson.
. That won't work, you'll be 10range short...
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