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russian armor

My Proposal to change Allied TDs

1 Nov 2019, 19:38 PM
#21
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7087 | Subs: 1

What i said in a similar post.


Do this in order:

1- Let's wait to see where we actually are after the tournament ends.

2- Delay a bit more the heavy call in tanks.

- Recheck all TD xp values and adjust accordingly.

- If vet pen based is to be changed, it could be tweak to be equal to armor buffs received by Axis.

3- You can also swap most of the offensive vet buffs to vet 3 and replace double offensive buffs on the same vet level for more defensive/mobility ones.

4- If after all this, the Jackson still requires a change:

HVAP becomes a vet0 ability with no munition cost and is a long time to switch toggleable munition.
RoF on HVAP nerf to be equal to that of FF, lower accuracy values (which should in theory be enough for heavies)
Default gun range reduced to 50 while moving. 60 range when still.



The problem with Jackson, is mostly a teamgame issue. I don't think you can reduce the HP and return to status quo of before, cause the clutches which made them work no longer exist in the game (for good). While it would be ez to make it a FF clone, i don't think it would be approved.

Since the unit already has HVAP, i think this could be the basis to make it work and give it a clear weakness compared to FF and Su85.
As i mentioned before, you could try giving it 2 type of munitions at vet 0 and make it work as the default Sherman.

Then you could add mobility based buff in vet, and make the reload/accuracy/pen based vet buff only affect a certain type of the munition shells.
For ex: vet 2 which is acc + reload could go towards the default gun while vet 3 which is pen + reload towards HVAP.
2 Nov 2019, 06:05 AM
#22
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 700

There is nothing wrong with the Jackson. My eyes want to roll to the back into my head everytime some Wehraboo whines about it. It is the easiest vehicle to counter. The only "problem" it has is Wehraboos feel entitled to just call out their heavy armor and stomp everything but the Jackson stands in the way of that (as it should). This is the only unit USF has that isn't overpriced except maybe the post-buff Riflemen. Literally one AT gun can counter it.

All it really needs to to revert the 5 fuel nerf that only was placed there because of entitled Wehraboo whining.
2 Nov 2019, 06:10 AM
#23
avatar of Anon66

Posts: 15

Honestly it's starting to sound like the m10 should be the USF TD with the jackson coming later.
Of course, I agree that if you want to nerf the jackson then you'll have to deal some kind of buff to the other AT options so they can reliably deal with an OKW P4.
2 Nov 2019, 06:16 AM
#24
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 717

Mediums can counter SU85 fine


There's a thing called flanking and not attacking head on incendiary rounds, maybe you could try it. If you want to make a thread about certain tank destroyers over performing why don't you post some stats, especially DPS

I see you fail to mention how vulnerable the FF, SU or Jackson are against Shreks. Meanwhile panthers can charge around the map deflecting all manor of PIAT, PTRS or zook rounds.

You shouldn't be able to just beat combined arms vehicle play by charging your P4 horde into SU or FFs head on.
2 Nov 2019, 06:17 AM
#25
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 700

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Nov 2019, 06:10 AMAnon66
Honestly it's starting to sound like the m10 should be the USF TD with the jackson coming later.
Of course, I agree that if you want to nerf the jackson then you'll have to deal some kind of buff to the other AT options so they can reliably deal with an OKW P4.


It's not viable to nerf the Jackson. USF was complete trash prior to it's health buff. Guess what you'd have to do to balance things out if you significantly nerfed the Jackson? You'd have to make the Panther doctrinal. The autistic screeching from Wehraboos would be deafening. But why shouldn't the Panther be doctrinal anyway? Allied premium mediums are mostly doctrinal and OKW still has the friggen King Tiger.
2 Nov 2019, 06:21 AM
#26
avatar of Anon66

Posts: 15

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Nov 2019, 06:17 AMCODGUY


It's not viable to nerf the Jackson. USF was complete trash prior to it's health buff. Guess what you'd have to do to balance things out if you significantly nerfed the Jackson? You'd have to make the Panther doctrinal. The autistic screeching from Wehraboos would be deafening. But why shouldn't the Panther be doctrinal anyway? Allied premium mediums are mostly doctrinal and OKW still has the friggen King Tiger.


The idea of making both the jackson and Panther doctrinal is very amusing to me. It's a shame it would never happen.
2 Nov 2019, 10:27 AM
#27
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8234 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Nov 2019, 06:17 AMCODGUY


It's not viable to nerf the Jackson. USF was complete trash prior to it's health buff. Guess what you'd have to do to balance things out if you significantly nerfed the Jackson? You'd have to make the Panther doctrinal. The autistic screeching from Wehraboos would be deafening. But why shouldn't the Panther be doctrinal anyway? Allied premium mediums are mostly doctrinal and OKW still has the friggen King Tiger.

Can we toned down the hate speech PLS.
2 Nov 2019, 18:47 PM
#28
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3216

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Nov 2019, 06:17 AMCODGUY
It's not viable to nerf the Jackson. USF was complete trash prior to it's health buff. Guess what you'd have to do to balance things out if you significantly nerfed the Jackson? You'd have to make the Panther doctrinal. The autistic screeching from Wehraboos would be deafening. But why shouldn't the Panther be doctrinal anyway? Allied premium mediums are mostly doctrinal and OKW still has the friggen King Tiger.


To make the Panther doctrinal you'd have to remove the IS-2 from the game.
2 Nov 2019, 19:28 PM
#29
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450

All you have to do is lower the rof of the jakson but increase pen. Then add the choice of teching to an easy8 or priest (kinda like anvil and hammer). Easy 8 will get more pen to become more of a tank hunter. This would fix up a lot of flaws and op strengths.
2 Nov 2019, 19:43 PM
#30
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2825 | Subs: 1

Coh2 TDs issue is more about

  • Ostheer having stock panther and stock brumbar
  • Ostheer having the Tiger in almost half of its doctrines
  • Elefant in two doctrines
  • OKW having stock panther
  • OKW stock King Tiger
  • OKW Jagpanther
  • Atgun being a joke vs heavy tank, they can depop them from the front.


More specifically about the Jackson

  • Stock sherman being AI specialist and poor AT penetration vs Axis Armor values
  • ATgun behind a specific tier and requiring munition to be effective vs Pz4
  • Zook being trash if not in blob
  • USF still having to fight the above with just one unit: the jackson
  • Really few AT strafing runs, in fact it is maybe the only faction that have only one AT strafing run.
  • Ez8 being unreliable vs Panther and above
  • 76mm being unreliable vs Panther and above



Some ideas:

  • Make the stock sherman a better generalist tank, reduce the AI and increase the AT (AI can be dealt by the Scott)
  • Ez8 being superior or equal to the Panther. Is there a rule that say the Panther has to be superior to the Ez8? Imo no. Ez8 could use to be a super premium brawler superior or equal to the panther.
  • USF could use two different types of Atgun (like in Coh1), one on T2 (better stat, no need munition) and the actual unlock after T3.
  • Make the Ez8 (or 76mm) Stock and 75mm doctrinal with an attractive price.


2 Nov 2019, 19:45 PM
#31
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2604

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Nov 2019, 19:43 PMEsxile
Coh2 TDs issue is more about

  • Ostheer having the Tiger in almost half of its doctrines
  • Elefant in two doctrines
  • OKW having stock panther
  • OKW stock King Tiger
  • OKW Jagpanther
  • Atgun being a joke vs heavy tank, they can depop them from the front.


More specifically about the Jackson

  • ATgun behind a specific tier and requiring munition to be effective vs Pz4
  • Zook being trash if not in blob
  • USF still having to fight the above with just one unit: the jackson
  • Really few AT strafing runs, in fact it is maybe the only faction that have only one AT strafing run.
  • Ez8 being unreliable vs Panther and above
  • 76mm being unreliable vs Panther and above



Some ideas:

  • Make the stock sherman a better generalist tank, reduce the AI and increase the AT (AI can be dealt by the Scott)
  • Ez8 being superior or equal to the Panther. Is there a rule that say the Panther has to be superior to the Ez8? Imo no. Ez8 could use to be a super premium brawler superior or equal to the panther.
  • USF could use two different types of Atgun (like in Coh1), one on T2 (better stat, no need munition) and the actual unlock after T3.
  • Make the Ez8 (or 76mm) Stock and 75mm doctrinal with an attractive price.




I actually agree with everything, I’ve been thnking about nerfing the Jackson and putting the E8 in more doctrines as a lite Panther alternative.
2 Nov 2019, 20:15 PM
#32
avatar of Freestyler1992

Posts: 88



I actually agree with everything, I’ve been thnking about nerfing the Jackson and putting the E8 in more doctrines as a lite Panther alternative.


I like this! But we must be careful to not make it a mini panther in the way that the Pershing is a mini tiger. That would just make it boring to be honest.
2 Nov 2019, 21:45 PM
#33
avatar of Anon66

Posts: 15

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Nov 2019, 19:43 PMEsxile
Coh2 TDs issue is more about

  • Ostheer having stock panther and stock brumbar
  • Ostheer having the Tiger in almost half of its doctrines
  • Elefant in two doctrines
  • OKW having stock panther
  • OKW stock King Tiger
  • OKW Jagpanther
  • Atgun being a joke vs heavy tank, they can depop them from the front.


More specifically about the Jackson

  • Stock sherman being AI specialist and poor AT penetration vs Axis Armor values
  • ATgun behind a specific tier and requiring munition to be effective vs Pz4
  • Zook being trash if not in blob
  • USF still having to fight the above with just one unit: the jackson
  • Really few AT strafing runs, in fact it is maybe the only faction that have only one AT strafing run.
  • Ez8 being unreliable vs Panther and above
  • 76mm being unreliable vs Panther and above



Some ideas:

  • Make the stock sherman a better generalist tank, reduce the AI and increase the AT (AI can be dealt by the Scott)
  • Ez8 being superior or equal to the Panther. Is there a rule that say the Panther has to be superior to the Ez8? Imo no. Ez8 could use to be a super premium brawler superior or equal to the panther.
  • USF could use two different types of Atgun (like in Coh1), one on T2 (better stat, no need munition) and the actual unlock after T3.
  • Make the Ez8 (or 76mm) Stock and 75mm doctrinal with an attractive price.




Love this idea, it would be nice to save the more effective shermans from doctrines in order to see more variety in USF armor. I would not at all mind the price increase to make the E8 a panther brawler.
2 Nov 2019, 22:52 PM
#34
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1026

Jackson needs a real nerf, not the garbage +5 fuel nerf.
Jackson need to be 200 fuel because this is bullshit how quickly my panzer4 dies or pls make jackson m10 clone and then delete m10 simple
3 Nov 2019, 00:59 AM
#35
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2926

This will change how easily allied AT guns can hit heavies + panthers, making them more accurate as well.

Agree with stormjager. Jackson needs an actual nerf instead of: who would win? 68 tons on krupp steel vs one open top boi.

+1

Jackson could use a reload nerf. That way it counters heavies still and still has the advantages it's supposed to, but it's less lethal. If a reload nerf hits it too hard, pen could be buffed to compensate.
3 Nov 2019, 01:30 AM
#36
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2186

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2019, 16:18 PMVipper
M36 was buffed thru the roof 2 year ago and USF had survived with normal M36 just fine for years


No they did not, in 2v2 and upwards, USF was nothing but ambulance and Calliope slave for the team over years.

Jackson was shit tier vs massive panther/ele/JP4/pak etc. gameplay as it constantly died immediately. Even a P4 was an insane threat for it if the map had enough sightblockers

And since AT guns suck at a stage of a match where the opponent has a lot indirect fire, superheavies or assault guns, you always had to duck behind your teammates Tank Destroyers.
3 Nov 2019, 02:31 AM
#37
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8234 | Subs: 1



No they did not, in 2v2 and upwards, USF was nothing but ambulance and Calliope slave for the team over years.

Jackson was shit tier vs massive panther/ele/JP4/pak etc. gameplay as it constantly died immediately. Even a P4 was an insane threat for it if the map had enough sightblockers

And since AT guns suck at a stage of a match where the opponent has a lot indirect fire, superheavies or assault guns, you always had to duck behind your teammates Tank Destroyers.

In team games and especially 4vs4 which you are probably referring each faction bring to the team what is good at, if other faction had better TDs that is what they would bring. USF survived for a long time and was even OP at some point with having the "monstrosity" m36 currently is.

Elephant and JP4 have already been nerfed so the current state is nothing like before.

Bottom line is "USF collapse without the "monstrosity" m36" is just theory and unless tested it will remain so. Worst case scenario one can simply revert the changes if USF start to struggle.
3 Nov 2019, 08:35 AM
#39
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2825 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Nov 2019, 02:31 AMVipper

In team games and especially 4vs4 which you are probably referring each faction bring to the team what is good at, if other faction had better TDs that is what they would bring. USF survived for a long time and was even OP at some point with having the "monstrosity" m36 currently is.

Elephant and JP4 have already been nerfed so the current state is nothing like before.

Bottom line is "USF collapse without the "monstrosity" m36" is just theory and unless tested it will remain so. Worst case scenario one can simply revert the changes if USF start to struggle.


M36 haven't been buffed but re-balanced around better survivability at cost of less damage. The unit is simply less of a coin toss today. And don't get it wrong we had the same bunch of whiner about it when RNG was in it favour.
3 Nov 2019, 09:44 AM
#40
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8234 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Nov 2019, 08:35 AMEsxile


M36 haven't been buffed but re-balanced around better survivability at cost of less damage. The unit is simply less of a coin toss today. And don't get it wrong we had the same bunch of whiner about it when RNG was in it favour.


IS that a Joke?

M36 Jackson
The M36 is having its damage modified to be more reliable against tanks, including heavies, but less potent in terms of burst damage against lower health vehicles.

Cost from 360/125 to 400/140
Damage from 200 to 160
Reload from 5.2/5.8 to 4.375/4.975; does not affect HVAP
HVAP damage decreased from 240 to 200
HVAP penetration from 300/250/220 to 300/280/250
Penetration from 240/220/200 to 260/240/220
Health from 480 to 640
Veterancy 3 reload bonus from 30% to 15%

The DPS stay relevantly the same with higher ROF while it got more penetration it got both better survivability and better damage. Only the vet 3 vet bonus whas reduced.

In addition both high armor targets it was facing Panther and Brumbar had their armor reduced.
M36 once vetted can hit and penetrate everything but KT/Ele/JT with with a probability close to 100%.

Was it a redesign? Only in the sense that the "glass cannon" designed become a "super cannon"
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