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Ostheer T4 Hot garbage or Actually fine?

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1 Nov 2019, 02:27 AM
#101
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1320



If it was that easy all factions would have that already woudnt they?

All faction have non meta units. All rts have non meta units. Ost is not and should not be the exveption.


What a pathetic excuse. "Non meta?" Translation: Underpowered. Every faction has non-meta/underpowered units. Well actually some factions have a bit more underpowered units than others. When almost an entire building is not worth getting in 1v1, there's a problem.

Ost is the faction of "exceptions," it has an exceptionally weak early game and an exceptionally expensive T4. Hence something that's exceptionally expensive should perform exceptionally, not 10% better than a T3 counterpart. Alright, I'm exaggerating with the "exceptions." But Ost T4 is still hands down the most expensive T4. Bottom line, T4 is supposed to be an INTEGRAL part of 1v1 play. Ost is SUPPOSED to have a very strong late game due to weakest early game but when T4 is only marginally better than T3 given the significant extra costs, Ost doesn't have a late game for 1v1.
1 Nov 2019, 02:52 AM
#102
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3678 | Subs: 1

Non meta doesn't mean weak. It just means non meta. The DSHK was a monster but was overshadowed by the maxim. Not weak but not meta and I believe that mostly sums up the brumbar too. Not weak but overshadowed by the turreted, quicker Ostwind.
1 Nov 2019, 03:20 AM
#103
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1070



What a pathetic excuse. "Non meta?" Translation: Underpowered. Every faction has non-meta/underpowered units. Well actually some factions have a bit more underpowered units than others. When almost an entire building is not worth getting in 1v1, there's a problem.

Ost is the faction of "exceptions," it has an exceptionally weak early game and an exceptionally expensive T4. Hence something that's exceptionally expensive should perform exceptionally, not 10% better than a T3 counterpart. Alright, I'm exaggerating with the "exceptions." But Ost T4 is still hands down the most expensive T4. Bottom line, T4 is supposed to be an INTEGRAL part of 1v1 play. Ost is SUPPOSED to have a very strong late game due to weakest early game but when T4 is only marginally better than T3 given the significant extra costs, Ost doesn't have a late game for 1v1.


Basically this. From wehr 2v2 random perspective. I feel im paying 10% more, microing 10% harder, for units 5% better on paper, but not so in heat of battle.

% are illustrative based on experience and not actual derives.

Their 4 man infantry, the t4 and elefant and brumbar issues brought up here, the poor vet bonus, etc. I think it all ties into the general outlook of current Wehr faction
1 Nov 2019, 05:38 AM
#104
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 247

When the late game faction has no late game units outside of doctrinal units :hansGASM:
1 Nov 2019, 05:53 AM
#105
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 504



What a pathetic excuse. "Non meta?" Translation: Underpowered. Every faction has non-meta/underpowered units. Well actually some factions have a bit more underpowered units than others. When almost an entire building is not worth getting in 1v1, there's a problem.

Ost is the faction of "exceptions," it has an exceptionally weak early game and an exceptionally expensive T4. Hence something that's exceptionally expensive should perform exceptionally, not 10% better than a T3 counterpart. Alright, I'm exaggerating with the "exceptions." But Ost T4 is still hands down the most expensive T4. Bottom line, T4 is supposed to be an INTEGRAL part of 1v1 play. Ost is SUPPOSED to have a very strong late game due to weakest early game but when T4 is only marginally better than T3 given the significant extra costs, Ost doesn't have a late game for 1v1.


What is pathetic is you thinking and claiming non meta and up is the same thing. Because of thinking like this we got overbuffed falls. There was nothing wrong with them but they required more micro then okw players where wanting to put in.

Ost early game is not so weak. If it was so weak they would not make it past 10 minutes in every game now would they? It also got buffed just as the mid game.
Ost can skip tiers now unlike before, you can make your t4 slightly cheaper if you wish. With all those changes ost is not supposed to have the "biggest"edge late game anymore.
1 Nov 2019, 06:15 AM
#106
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 504



Basically this. From wehr 2v2 random perspective. I feel im paying 10% more, microing 10% harder, for units 5% better on paper, but not so in heat of battle.

% are illustrative based on experience and not actual derives.

Their 4 man infantry, the t4 and elefant and brumbar issues brought up here, the poor vet bonus, etc. I think it all ties into the general outlook of current Wehr faction


Lol ost having a higher micro tax. Ost and sov unit esp inf and support weapons have simaler % in vet bonusses. But ost has weak vet bonusses.
Ost mg,s and main line are actualy cheaper except for the vickers, but their tanks are more expensive as a balance.

But yeah axis forever up, balance may never be achieved. Flood the forums with allies op and axis up.
1 Nov 2019, 06:29 AM
#107
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1320



What is pathetic is you thinking and claiming non meta and up is the same thing. Because of thinking like this we got overbuffed falls. There was nothing wrong with them but they required more micro then okw players where wanting to put in.

Ost early game is not so weak. If it was so weak they would not make it past 10 minutes in every game now would they? It also got buffed just as the mid game.
Ost can skip tiers now unlike before, you can make your t4 slightly cheaper if you wish. With all those changes ost is not supposed to have the "biggest"edge late game anymore.


Literally nobody used falls before the buffs and almost everybody agreed it needed buffs. Overbuffing is solely the fault of the balance team not the players or the average forum member. The fact that you think there's nothing wrong with prebuff falls them puts you in a tiny minority of players, an extremely biased minority.

Ost early game is still the weakest hands down. It's a bit better now due to faster deploying pgrens, but it's still the weakest. Hence to make up for that Ost should have a very strong late game, at least on par with OKW's late game since OKW's early game is noticeably stronger than Ost's. If Ost has the "biggest" edge late game, (right now it doesn't) Ost deserves it due to weakest early game and only an ok midgame.
1 Nov 2019, 07:28 AM
#108
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1070



Lol ost having a higher micro tax. Ost and sov unit esp inf and support weapons have simaler % in vet bonusses. But ost has weak vet bonusses.
Ost mg,s and main line are actualy cheaper except for the vickers, but their tanks are more expensive as a balance.

But yeah axis forever up, balance may never be achieved. Flood the forums with allies op and axis up.


But it is true though. At least whenever i compare vet of same tier units, i found Wehr is more handicap. I haven't do extensive comparison, but it is there.

And so is the micro. I think wehr needs a bit more apm. You can say usf needs an extra bit of scouting, but wehr seems to require babysitting mostly
1 Nov 2019, 15:22 PM
#109
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 504



Literally nobody used falls before the buffs and almost everybody agreed it needed buffs. Overbuffing is solely the fault of the balance team not the players or the average forum member. The fact that you think there's nothing wrong with prebuff falls them puts you in a tiny minority of players, an extremely biased minority.

Ost early game is still the weakest hands down. It's a bit better now due to faster deploying pgrens, but it's still the weakest. Hence to make up for that Ost should have a very strong late game, at least on par with OKW's late game since OKW's early game is noticeably stronger than Ost's. If Ost has the "biggest" edge late game, (right now it doesn't) Ost deserves it due to weakest early game and only an ok midgame.


Please show the bias in thinking a unit is ok when not using it. I think the su76 is good but no one uses it. is that biased?

You still have you checklist with only allied units on it and you will work down that list to try and claim op on all of them like you did before? The biggest bias you see and smell is on your end.

Volks are very very cost effecient acros the entire game. Okw has the strongest engineer and non doc elite inf. Please justify why in hell do they need such a powerhouse falls squad that can do all they can do and camo for a measely 2cp and 340mp?

So a slightly weaker early game warrant an okw level late game? Okw has a very strong early game indeed, a solid mid game and a strong late game. By your logic okw,s endgame should be nerfed hard for having a very strong early game. Please continu.
1 Nov 2019, 17:36 PM
#110
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1320



Please show the bias in thinking a unit is ok when not using it. I think the su76 is good but no one uses it. is that biased?

You still have you checklist with only allied units on it and you will work down that list to try and claim op on all of them like you did before? The biggest bias you see and smell is on your end.

Volks are very very cost effecient acros the entire game. Okw has the strongest engineer and non doc elite inf. Please justify why in hell do they need such a powerhouse falls squad that can do all they can do and camo for a measely 2cp and 340mp?

So a slightly weaker early game warrant an okw level late game? Okw has a very strong early game indeed, a solid mid game and a strong late game. By your logic okw,s endgame should be nerfed hard for having a very strong early game. Please continu.


Falls are now needed since volks got nerfed but more importantly, rifles, after their buff, dominate volks unlike before. OKW no longer has a strong early game due to the changes to volks and rifles, their early game is around average now. So no, I don't think OKW late game is in need of any changes.

If you're gonna call me axis biased/fanboy at least get your facts straight, I main Ostheer, not Axis. And no, I don't have a checklist of ONLY allied units. In fact I advocated for much more significant volk nerfs and pgren schreck to be locked behind T2.

1 Nov 2019, 18:07 PM
#111
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 817

Non meta doesn't mean weak. It just means non meta. The DSHK was a monster but was overshadowed by the maxim. Not weak but not meta and I believe that mostly sums up the brumbar too. Not weak but overshadowed by the turreted, quicker Ostwind.


Following up with a P4 with an ostwind costs 300 mp 100 fuel
Following it up with a brumbar costs 620 manpower and 200 fuel.

What substantive arguments support that difference in cost? I think non-meta can refer to strategies that work but are unreliable or require a certain level of skill or technique, not ones which are wildly overpriced or ineffective.

At that cost it should be performing like a K-v2 or IS2 which would come at a similar time after say a t34
90+ kv2 230 fuel = 310. Ostheer p4 120 + brumbar 200 = 320.
1 Nov 2019, 18:20 PM
#112
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1320



Following up with a P4 with an ostwind costs 300 mp 100 fuel
Following it up with a brumbar costs 620 manpower and 200 fuel.

What substantive arguments support that difference in cost? I think non-meta can refer to strategies that work but are unreliable or require a certain level of skill or technique, not ones which are wildly overpriced or ineffective.

At that cost it should be performing like a K-v2 or IS2 which would come at a similar time after say a t34
90+ kv2 230 fuel = 310. Ostheer p4 120 + brumbar 200 = 320.


EXACTLY.


And KV2 STOMPS the Brummbar. No attack ground needed, shells land super fast, has the armor and HP of at least the KV8, pens ALL armor regularly. And there's no premium tier required for KV2 which makes the 230F vs 150F excuse null and void.

It's beyond me how people continue to attempt to justify Brummbar is in a good spot.
1 Nov 2019, 20:50 PM
#113
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3678 | Subs: 1

Since Ost semi has a split tech the "but medium tank!" thing doesn't really hold water. You could very easily skip t3 if the cards are right. T4 is a premium tier, the fact that the only thing you can really compare the brummbar to is doctrinal, limited to 1 70 fuel more expensive units kinda says what it needs to don't ya think?
The fact that Ost even has that Option EVERY GAME is spectacular. Not to say the brum couldn't use some love (I agree the range nerf was un needed) but whining because heavily restricted, exclusive and more costly units are better is a foolish standpoint.
1 Nov 2019, 21:22 PM
#114
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 14614 | Subs: 7



EXACTLY.


And KV2 STOMPS the Brummbar. No attack ground needed, shells land super fast, has the armor and HP of at least the KV8, pens ALL armor regularly. And there's no premium tier required for KV2 which makes the 230F vs 150F excuse null and void.

It's beyond me how people continue to attempt to justify Brummbar is in a good spot.

KV-2 is doctrinal heavy tank limited to 1.
You can have multiple brumms.
How is ~10 sec reload "super fast", but ~7sec is long to you?
It has health and armor of a tiger, because its AI oriented tiger with lower mobility.
Also cost is very relevant, unless you're super pro player who never loses heavy armor in late game, but lets face it - its you, so cost is extremely relevant here.
1 Nov 2019, 22:33 PM
#115
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 504



Falls are now needed since volks got nerfed but more importantly, rifles, after their buff, dominate volks unlike before. OKW no longer has a strong early game due to the changes to volks and rifles, their early game is around average now. So no, I don't think OKW late game is in need of any changes.

If you're gonna call me axis biased/fanboy at least get your facts straight, I main Ostheer, not Axis. And no, I don't have a checklist of ONLY allied units. In fact I advocated for much more significant volk nerfs and pgren schreck to be locked behind T2.



Maybe i missed something but i find the volks nerf rather tiny. Just a 10mp increase. Yeah their early game is not strong anymore.... And that justifies 5 or 6 buffs on falls?

Rifles got buffed at close range where they beat volks mostly already. Now its more certain that volks win long range and rifles at close. Not saying that buff was needed but i dont object to it.

Good to hear that i am wrong about the level of bias, but you do seem to have an axe to grind with any allied faction.

And you havent responded to me thinking su76 and pre buff falls as non meta but fine. if that makes me extremely biased in a tiny minority?

To get back on topic. They buffed ost early mid game. Bye buffing the ostwind a faster turreted AI vehicle then the brum. They buffed pgrens whom excel in AI. Imo the tiger is more acceseble now then a brumbar wich also has great AI.

I can get behind its barrage getting a buff. But it should not ever one shot a squad. Esp not from out of sight range
2 Nov 2019, 02:36 AM
#116
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1320


KV-2 is doctrinal heavy tank limited to 1.
You can have multiple brumms.
How is ~10 sec reload "super fast", but ~7sec is long to you?
It has health and armor of a tiger, because its AI oriented tiger with lower mobility.
Also cost is very relevant, unless you're super pro player who never loses heavy armor in late game, but lets face it - its you, so cost is extremely relevant here.


Show me a 1v1 replay where someone went for multiple Brums, heck I've watched many team game replays and I can't recall seeing that. And I didn't say anything about reload times, I said that KV2 shells land much faster than Brum, so u don't need to attack ground every shot. "AI oriented" Tiger, yet penetrates panther regularly. I'm a fairly decent 1v1 player if u can't see my rank is 170, so losing a Brum is a rare occurance, the occurance that I've overextended. I probably lose panthers more often due to exchanging its life for an allied heavy's.

As usual, taking a swipe at my rank, yet your post is full of shit as usual. LOL
2 Nov 2019, 02:55 AM
#117
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1320



Maybe i missed something but i find the volks nerf rather tiny. Just a 10mp increase. Yeah their early game is not strong anymore.... And that justifies 5 or 6 buffs on falls?

Rifles got buffed at close range where they beat volks mostly already. Now its more certain that volks win long range and rifles at close. Not saying that buff was needed but i dont object to it.

Good to hear that i am wrong about the level of bias, but you do seem to have an axe to grind with any allied faction.

And you havent responded to me thinking su76 and pre buff falls as non meta but fine. if that makes me extremely biased in a tiny minority?

To get back on topic. They buffed ost early mid game. Bye buffing the ostwind a faster turreted AI vehicle then the brum. They buffed pgrens whom excel in AI. Imo the tiger is more acceseble now then a brumbar wich also has great AI.

I can get behind its barrage getting a buff. But it should not ever one shot a squad. Esp not from out of sight range


I've already said, nobody asks for an overbuff/overnerf for ANY unit. The fault lies solely on the balance team.

Speaking of axes to grind, you seem to have a axe to grind with axis factions. Do u want me the post all the youtube comments I've seen you post on replays? Almost all of them are either X allied unit is UP or X axis unit is OP. From seeing your youtube comments I can say with absolute certainty that you spend a significant majority of time playing allies so you're no less biased than me.

And I never asked for Brum to one shot anything. If you go back to the thread I created about Brum UP, I said the Brum was triple nerfed. All I wanted was the bal team to revert ONLY one of those nerfs, that's it.
2 Nov 2019, 04:45 AM
#118
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1070

Well said incendiary. I am no where near your rank, but i played tons of 2v2 Wehr. And the experience has been getting more difficult and frustrating. The balance team obviously chose to keep Wehr stats lower and more static, afraid to make changes to catch up with Allies uplift.

To be fair, yes the last last change with Ostwind/Pgren etc, helps after years of calling. This is good for early mid game. Of course the last patch, follow up, i disagree wtih weakening OKW and buffing Rifles and Cons too much.

We are still left with late game that Wehr is falling behind still. A more useful Brumbar, a more useful Panther vets would have improve clearly, but they seem fearful to change anything with T4 Axis. Like the old traditions haunt them that Axis are unbeatable late game or something
2 Nov 2019, 06:04 AM
#119
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 523



Show me a 1v1 replay where someone went for multiple Brums, heck I've watched many team game replays and I can't recall seeing that. And I didn't say anything about reload times, I said that KV2 shells land much faster than Brum, so u don't need to attack ground every shot. "AI oriented" Tiger, yet penetrates panther regularly. I'm a fairly decent 1v1 player if u can't see my rank is 170, so losing a Brum is a rare occurance, the occurance that I've overextended. I probably lose panthers more often due to exchanging its life for an allied heavy's.

As usual, taking a swipe at my rank, yet your post is full of shit as usual. LOL


So just because brumbar isnt built multiple times in 1vs1 like it is in 2vs2+ that makes the fact it's not limited to 1 invalid?

Lol it's quite laughable to make such a case, when even now post nerf players still build double brum in team games and just lob shells everywhere to wipe team weapons or to clear out VPs.

It's not meta with the current heavy focus sure, but brum still does it's job to punish players relying in zooks and the odd AT gun or two. Something the ostwind most certainly will struggle with.
2 Nov 2019, 06:27 AM
#120
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1070

Actually imo Brum is built for 1v1 mostly. Since the maps are smaller and you dont get multi 60TD pointed at it.
I mean, i will not build Brum in 2v2 and a completely no in 4v4.

Even in 1v1, its fearsomeness is lacking for a such heavy investment with 'micro' tax
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