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Ostheer T4 Hot garbage or Actually fine?

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29 Oct 2019, 19:51 PM
#1
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 816

Hot out the shoutbox and Off the Imperial Dane Rant :romeoHype: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt_WWwN3Cc8

What are your thoughts on T4 and the Units within?

I'll start with my own experience

Panther - Exactly the same as the OKW Panther, this unit is constantly monitored as the "Lategame" unit for axis. I feel its in a good spot as parity with the jackson, SU85 and Firefly are very tightly monitored and updated often as the game evolves.

Brumbar- Can be very strong in the right situation, but can also get blasted by AT very easily if brought in at the wrong time against heavy resistance. Prohibitively expensive especially if you don't have less expensive t3 units to back it up or you are opting for a panther as well.

Panzerwerfer- Rockets all come at once but arrive slower than the first rockets from Katusha or Calliope. I find it slightly worse than those options as it makes it much easier to aim, but other players seem to have more success with this than me.

Tech cost
100 MP 25 fuel for BP3
100 MP 25 fuel for T4 building

With your first panther costing over 235 fuel from your last p4 it can be very difficult with a player who jumps from t34 to IS2 or Sherman to pershing in terms of resources. In teamgames this fuel isn't as much of a major concern but in 1v1 it can be prohibitively expensive in a competitive game.

I also don't really see why Ostheer should be paying more for the Panzerwerfer when its around as good as the other rocket artillery options that do not cost more to unlock.

The Brumbar can work well or poorly so paying this extra fuel seems like a risk if you don't know how it will do.

TLDR: I find the T4 units to be fine, but My question is why should someone pay a penny extra in tech over USF, Soviet, OKW after I have gotten my initial tank tech.
29 Oct 2019, 19:53 PM
#2
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 1941

Ostheer T4 is strong and completely fine in teamgames (NOT TALKING ABOUT 1V1)
29 Oct 2019, 20:02 PM
#3
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 874

I respect your opinion Honeynuts, so I appreciate you making this thread cuz Sander93 keeps dodging my T4 complaints even tho numerous streamers have expressed distaste for the Brummbar.

I’m gonna skip the werfer which i really like. The Panther all I have to say is a Vet 3 Jackson should not pen a vet 2 Panther 100% of the time. This absolutely needs fixing.

Now, the main issue with T4 is the Brummbar. How the hell am I supposed to use this unit? No mobility, huge pathing issues and low range means you can’t flank and get cheeky shots off and reverse like you can with the StugiE which has very nice mobility. The armour and speed are not sufficient to attack enemy strongpoints, which is the Brummbar’s ROLE. It’s not meant to go after infantry squads unsupported, it’s meant to assault strongpoints, hence the original Brummbar design. Now we’re stuck with a version that cannot do its job properly.

So how does this get fixed? In my view, either endurance needs a slight increase, by increasing armour or mibility, or its firing range needs to buffed to 40.

I also want to address the comments on this unit being there just for teamgames: Not a single stock unit in the game is balanced just around teamgames. The Brummbar is no exception.
29 Oct 2019, 20:03 PM
#4
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2719

Ostheer T4 is largely defined by the fact that you need to tech again for it, so the units it has have to be worth it.

The main reason to get T4 as it stands is the Panther, which'll give you armour superiority over doctrinal premium meds against which the StuG and P4 are questionably effective.

The Brummbar used to be rushed in 1v1s before its nerfs and the Ostwind's buffs. These days it's more of a teamgame unit, where you really need that durability.

The Panzerwerfer is a very useful tool against heavy team weapon strats, but in 1v1 you can usually fight those with maneuver.
29 Oct 2019, 20:07 PM
#5
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 598

I agree with Aerafield; all I'll add is that if you do decide to buff/nerf anything here, please keep in mind how it will affect game modes outside of 1v1.
29 Oct 2019, 20:09 PM
#6
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 874

I agree with Aerafield; all I'll add is that if you do decide to buff/nerf anything here, please keep in mind how it will affect game modes outside of 1v1.


Any buff to the Brummbar would be something along the lines of +5 range (for example) which shouldn’t affect teamgames. If the balance team thinks that’s the case, then maybe the buff could be turned into an adjustment by buffing the range but also increasing veterancy requirements.
29 Oct 2019, 20:26 PM
#7
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1961 | Subs: 3

so I appreciate you making this thread cuz Sander93 keeps dodging my T4 complaints even tho numerous streamers have expressed distaste for the Brummbar.

I'm not dodging anything, I simply completely disagree. Ostheer T4 is absolutely meta (I'd say 75% of 2v2/3v3/4v4 games players skip T3 entirely) and very strong in teamgames and it's fine (or rather - there's not much that can be done about it) that it isn't as good in 1v1s. Not everything is meant to be viable in all modes, because not everything can be balanced across all modes. If we'd buff T4 so it'll become viable in 1v1, performance in teamgames would go through the roof.


Any buff to the Brummbar would be something along the lines of +5 range (for example) which shouldn’t affect teamgames.

Its range is what got nerfed exactly because that was why it was overperforming in teamgames (besides high armor). It could just camp behind a VP and lob shells into it from a safe distance.

It was a majority of the 2v2 players in the Anniversary Classic that collectively agreed the unit needed these nerfs to stop it from overperforming.
29 Oct 2019, 20:30 PM
#8
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 874



I'm not dodging anything, I simply completely disagree. Ostheer T4 is absolutely meta (I'd say 75% of 2v2/3v3/4v4 games players skip T3 entirely) and very strong in teamgames and it's fine (or rather - there's not much that can be done about it) that it isn't as good in 1v1s. Not everything is meant to be viable in all modes, because not everything can be balanced across all modes. If we'd buff T4 so it'll become viable in 1v1, performance in teamgames would go through the roof.


I didn’t say buff T4, I said make the Brummbar more viable in 1s by giving it +5 range, but give it higher vet requirements to keep it as is in teamgames.
29 Oct 2019, 20:36 PM
#9
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 816


75% of 2v2/3v3/4v4 games players skip T3 entirely


So Why not make it easier to jump from T3 to T4 which would impact 1v1 but not 75% of players in teamgames?

I agree with the teamgame perspective, I use t4 a lot But rushing it and paying the extra 50 fuel and 200 manpower later in the game are very different use cases. Rushing it isn't really a good option in 1v1 but is in team games when there are fewer light vehicle threats.

Going Strait to T4 only costs 60 extra manpower and 35 more fuel, so waiting an extra minute for tech in a teamgame is not unreasonable.

Waiting an extra mabye 3 minutes with lower fuel income in a 1v1 and Paying 200 extra manpower after t3 is so much harder. Especially considering the Unit's don't do tons more than the tank tech tier of other factions.
29 Oct 2019, 20:36 PM
#10
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 874

Its range is what got nerfed exactly because that was why it was overperforming in teamgames (besides high armor). It could just camp behind a VP and lob shells into it from a safe distance.


Then make it more mobile. There are ways to make it better, I don’t know why range would be considered the only thing that can change.
29 Oct 2019, 20:41 PM
#11
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1961 | Subs: 3

So Why not make it easier to jump from T3 to T4 which would impact 1v1 but not 75% of players in teamgames?


That was already done ~2 years ago (IIRC?) to make teching to T4 easier. Right now there's not really anything left to adjust beyond that, without messing with T3 and T4 timings.
29 Oct 2019, 20:49 PM
#12
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 874

Since range is out of the question, what about lowering veterancy requirements? It’s easier to get vet in teamgames with the abundance of targets than in 1v1s, and faster vet would make going after the Brummbar more forgiving as you’ll reach vet 2 slightly faster.
29 Oct 2019, 20:55 PM
#13
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 816



That was already done ~2 years ago (IIRC?) to make teching to T4 easier. Right now there's not really anything left to adjust beyond that, without messing with T3 and T4 timings.


Since that time the Panther became more expensive and got the Vet2 HP at vet0 but less armor overall and the Brumbar got nerfed, so it is a bit harder to get the impact out of t4. Also the entire light vehicle rework came after that IIRC, so there is a different 1v1 meta at this time which encourages producing something quickly to counter an aaht, stuart, t70, aec ect.

If you had total Lattitude you could just make All the Units come out of a "T3" building and make the upgrade to BP3 to unlock "T4 units" cost 60 manpower and 35 fuel.

Both T3 and T4 timings would be the same and It would be easier to get both.

The other option would be to make t3, and BP3 Cost less but add that cost back onto BP2. Again Same timings, Just easier to sidetech, but It would only be equivalent to the prior option if you make t3 cost nothing.

Edit: Also For comparison 200mp and 50 fuel is what UKF pay to get Warspeed, Gammon bombs, FOW tracking AND comet unlock, so I think it's fair to say 200mp and 50 fuel is overpriced.
29 Oct 2019, 21:05 PM
#14
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6393 | Subs: 1

My suggestion would be actually delay T4 and then delay all the extremely powerful units that come earlier with each patch...

And there are many way to do that including increasing the time of researcher so it that all MOD are affected.

Unit have been buffed thru the roof and accuracy and penetration chances are near 100%...
It about time that when faced with a situation where if unit A is used allot more than unit B one should start nerfing unite A instead of buffing unit B...
29 Oct 2019, 21:12 PM
#15
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1679

actually i find OK that T4 being rather "bad"
OST should be focused on early to midgame instead of lategame superiority.

That enables OKW to have a time frame to shine, promote teamwork and balance axis vs allied.

As it is now OST has good late-earlygame and great midgame. A slightly inferior lategame shouldnt be a big of an issue. It could use a little patch though
29 Oct 2019, 21:12 PM
#16
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2330 | Subs: 1

I have been thinking... Why not redesign T3 and T4 to be more like Soviets and USF? Remove panther/brumbar from T4 to doctrines. Move p4 to T4, add JP4 to T4. Nerf Ostwind and reduce price, same for Stug. Add another light vehicle to T3 and reduce costs of Tiers.

All tiers will be usefull and OST will no longer be able to just spam premiums in every team game regardless of doctrines. Also OST will be able to play more agressive in the midgame instead of having to turtle all the time.
29 Oct 2019, 21:13 PM
#17
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1679

I have been thinking... Why not redesign T3 and T4 to be more like Soviets and USF? Remove panther/brumbar from T4 to doctrines. Move p4 to T4, add JP4 to T4. Nerf Ostwind and reduce price, same for Stug. Add another light vehicle to T3 and reduce costs of Tiers.

All tiers will be usefull and OST will no longer be able to just spam premiums in every team game regardless of doctrines. Also OST will be able to play more agressive in the midgame instead of having to turtle all the time.

sneaky nerf demand detected. No need for lights on T3 neither.
I think you dont played OST enough

Not all tiers should be "useful", i disagree
29 Oct 2019, 21:41 PM
#18
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 191

T4 is hideously bad. It's completely useless in 1v1, and I'd argue just as bad in 2v2.

Panzerwerfer is just woeful compared to other Allied rocket arty. Rockets take forever to land, and it's utterly inferior to either the Katyu or Caliope.

Brumbär would be a decent unit if it wasn't coupled with expensive costs. You can get two Ostwinds for the price of one Brum, and I don't see a single situation where a single Brum would be a better option than two Ostwinds. Especially because the Ostwind has a turret and can blitz.

Same with the Panther. It's performance isn't necessarily the issue. But the Panther is a pure AT unit (don't give me "But the MG1!111!1"), and for the price of one Panther I can almost get 3 Stugs. Are the StuGs reliable IS2 or ISU killers? No.
But then the Panther has its own issues (namely its slow ROF and miserable moving accuracy). Again I'd argue that, whatever I'm facing, those 2-3 Stugs will perform much better than a single Panther.

Also, I wish people would stop making arguments about 3v3 and 4v4. Your resource income is much higher in those modes, so it's much easier to tech for T4. The Werfer's shambolic performance and cost especially make AT walls in 2v2 problematic.
29 Oct 2019, 21:52 PM
#19
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 493


Panther - Exactly the same as the OKW Panther, this unit is constantly monitored as the "Lategame" unit for axis. I feel its in a good spot as parity with the jackson, SU85 and Firefly are very tightly monitored and updated often as the game evolves.

Panther is fine in my eyes and often the main reason to go for T4 as OST

Brumbar- Can be very strong in the right situation, but can also get blasted by AT very easily if brought in at the wrong time against heavy resistance. Prohibitively expensive especially if you don't have less expensive t3 units to back it up or you are opting for a panther as well.

Brummbär of very situational and actually a good vehicle. The main problem is that it is heavily micro dependent (best use is on hold fire with manual ground targeting). So good players will often get their cost back with high wipe potential, while worse players will rage that it so often misses its shots. The price is balanced around high level play.

For the further discussion, as someone said Brummbär would have short range: It has 35 range, which is quite far. And it can lob its shots over obstacles, which is a great trait, but not useful on every map.


Panzerwerfer- Rockets all come at once but arrive slower than the first rockets from Katusha or Calliope. I find it slightly worse than those options as it makes it much easier to aim, but other players seem to have more success with this than me.

I'd actually prefer the Panzerwerfer over the Katy. Great unit to wipe squads if your opponent is not pinpoint accurate with his call where it will land.



Main problems with T4 is OSTs design. OST has no real LV with the power of a Puma, Luchs or T70. So near the midgame, OST often needs a vehicle to not fall behind too much. Waiting for T4 will often be too risky (at least in smaller modes), so going T3 is just a way safer option. T4 is great in teamgames though, no real need for T3 there. Just skip it and get the big guns instantly.
29 Oct 2019, 21:54 PM
#20
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2719

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 21:41 PMFarlion
for the price of one Panther I can almost get 3 Stugs.


I think you need to check your maths.
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