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Suggestions for Ostheer Defensive Doctrine

Stug E
Option Distribution Votes
59%
41%
0%
Repair Bunker
Option Distribution Votes
75%
25%
0%
Concrete MG Bunker
Option Distribution Votes
69%
31%
0%
Sector Artillery
Option Distribution Votes
18%
71%
12%
Total votes: 66
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
27 Oct 2019, 00:04 AM
#1
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1602 | Subs: 3

This is one of my favorite doctrines and while it's decent enough for the Osttruppen, many other abilities on it are simply unviable if you want to be competitive. I'd like to highlight the biggest issues and suggest some improvements for them.

Stug E
While this unit has good splash damage and long range, it often won't kill any models even with 2 direct hits. Enemy squads tend to shuffle around infront of it because of the lack of any immediate danger, which other units like the Ostwind, Scott and Brummbar would punish heavily. I'd therefore suggest to allow it to upgrade with a pintle MG for 30 munitions (same as Stug G) to allow it to finish off damaged models at medium distance.

Concrete Repair Bunker
This building simply has bad price/performance. The Soviet equivalent has 300 HP, costs 125 manpower and 45 munitions and provides 4 automatrons. The repair bunker has 960 HP, costs 380 manpower and provides only 3 automatrons. While I do feel the Soviet equivalent should be more cost effective because it occupies a whole commander slot and is obviously more vulnerable, you pay a x2,5 upfront cost with the repair bunker for each pio model over a fresh pio squad, which is just too high. I'd suggest the automatron count gets upped to 4 and the cost changed to 250 manpower and 60 munitions.

Concrete MG Bunker
Has bad price/performance compared to a normal MG bunker. It takes much longer to build, provides less sight, takes up 2 pop and costs an immense amount of resources, only so it can take 3 more shots from an AT gun (from 3 to 6). I'd likewise suggest the price to be changed to 250 manpower and 60 munitions.

Sector Artillery
While this ability received some love last rework, it's still one of the more lackluster Ostheer abilities. Compare it to UKF's Perimeter Overwatch for example:

- Slower tracking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDf6SDp1uX0
- Duration of 45 seconds compared to 120 seconds.
- Only affects selected and adjacent sectors, not all owned sectors.
- Doesn't increase sight around capture points, while Overwatch increases it with 200%.
- Similar firepower (two offmap arty batteries vs 2 howi's + irregular offmap mortar and arty battery).
- 200 munitions vs 225 munitions.

In my opinion, the biggest problem is the slow tracking making it ineffective against enemy squads (and vehicles) that are mobile. I'm not saying it should hit them while moving, but the shells should atleast be somewhat on their tail. Also, the short duration means it's mediocre at area denial. The ability will probably be over after the initial engagement, so won't help much with denying your opponent from capping if you got forced off. I suggest to reduce the delay between enemy position and shells landing by around 1 second and to double the duration to 90 seconds.
27 Oct 2019, 00:24 AM
#2
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

To be honest, there is so much potential in this doctrine yet it doesn’t live up to it like it should. I’d rather see something like:

0CP Osttruppen squad call in
2CP Infantry can construct sandbags, pioneers can build concrete bunkers
5CP 251 HTs can act as forward retreat points (100 muni, locks out flamer, 20 sec set up and pack up times, aura heal)
5CP Veteran support units (pioneers and support weapon crews can upgrade to 5 men)
8CP Defensive operations (All infantry receive -25% incoming accuracy and -25% damage received for 30 seconds, but cannot retreat. Weapon crews receive -20% damage. 120 muni)
27 Oct 2019, 00:25 AM
#3
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2724 | Subs: 4

Sector artillery is completely fine, there is no need to make 1 click 0 micro abilities even more devastating.

Agree about everything else
27 Oct 2019, 00:39 AM
#4
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1602 | Subs: 3

Sector artillery is completely fine, there is no need to make 1 click 0 micro abilities even more devastating.

Agree about everything else


Maybe you're right, but Sector Artillery should atleast be able to blunt assaults if the enemy decides to stay in the targeted sectors, which it struggles to do because the shells can't keep up with any movement. Otherwise they might aswell replace it with a more "skillful" ability like frag bombs (Kappa).

I could post a video comparing the tracking between Perimeter Overwatch and Sector Artillery if you're interested.
27 Oct 2019, 10:24 AM
#5
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 177

Why is Stug E in this Doctrine to begin with? For its cost it is the absolute most useless defense vehicle I could imagine:

-Can't hit a mobile unit.
-Gets countered by every vehicle with AT capability.
-Gets countered by AT because unlike its big brother It doesn't have the range increase skill button.
-It has no turret so you are gonna get Reliced when the enemy starts pushing. You smash that U and try to reverse to safety but your Stugs just start showing ass like its pride parade.

It's an assault gun and sucks even at that because it can't deal with soft AT of any kind. Remove it from this doctrine and replace it with something useful or thematic like:

-3CP supply drop or supply truck would actually incentivise playing defensive and reward you for succeeding in it.
-2CP OKW AA HT in T2 would fit the theme
-spotting scopes
27 Oct 2019, 10:31 AM
#6
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13187 | Subs: 1

Stug -E should be able to get an pintle MG either with mu cost or with veterancy or being free.

I also needs different vet 1 ability, a direct fire mod and veterancy overhaul.

Concrete bunkers should take less damage from satchel and ATG, actually ATGs should be less effective vs all building including emplacement.

My experience from Sector is that it is an inconsistent ability I have seen it being from devastating to a waste of MU and tracking issues would explain that.

Sector could become cheaper, lower CP, longer duration and then it damage could be adjusted accordingly. It after all a defensive ability that can be countered by moving out of the sectors.

A comparison video with the tracking differences between Perimeter Overwatch and Sector Artillery would be interesting.

I would like to add here osttruppen as an issue and their LMG upgrade.The lmg is not that great I would rather see an upgrade similar to 7th conscripts. I could instead completely remove the cover mechanism reduce their target size and maybe allow them to merge.
27 Oct 2019, 13:25 PM
#7
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2086 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 10:31 AMVipper
Stug -E should be able to get an pintle MG either with mu cost or with veterancy or being free.

I also needs different vet 1 ability, a direct fire mod and veterancy overhaul.

Concrete bunkers should take less damage from satchel and ATG, actually ATGs should be less effective vs all building including emplacement.

My experience from Sector is that it is an inconsistent ability I have seen it being from devastating to a waste of MU and tracking issues would explain that.

Sector could become cheaper, lower CP, longer duration and then it damage could be adjusted accordingly. It after all a defensive ability that can be countered by moving out of the sectors.

A comparison video with the tracking differences between Perimeter Overwatch and Sector Artillery would be interesting.

I would like to add here osttruppen as an issue and their LMG upgrade.The lmg is not that great I would rather see an upgrade similar to 7th conscripts. I could instead completely remove the cover mechanism reduce their target size and maybe allow them to merge.


If PTRS should do less damage to the concrete bunker, then they must suppress the machine gun inside the bunker: it must either kill the machine gunner and the fire will cease until it is replaced by another soldier, or reduce the rate of fire and suppression of the machine gun bunker. Because for PTRS suppression of firing points and bunkers has become one of the main work after reducing their effectiveness as an anti-tank weapon.
27 Oct 2019, 14:40 PM
#8
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13187 | Subs: 1



If PTRS should do less damage to the concrete bunker, then they must suppress the machine gun inside the bunker: it must either kill the machine gunner and the fire will cease until it is replaced by another soldier, or reduce the rate of fire and suppression of the machine gun bunker. Because for PTRS suppression of firing points and bunkers has become one of the main work after reducing their effectiveness as an anti-tank weapon.


I was talking about Anti tank guns, not about hand held AT weapons.
27 Oct 2019, 14:41 PM
#9
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1


I could post a video comparing the tracking between Perimeter Overwatch and Sector Artillery if you're interested.


Doesn't perimeter overwatch rely on the base howitzers? Haven't used it in a while but I thought you had to wait for the things to rotate a bunch
27 Oct 2019, 14:41 PM
#10
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1602 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 10:31 AMVipper
A comparison video with the tracking differences between Perimeter Overwatch and Sector Artillery would be interesting.


Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDf6SDp1uX0

It's pretty difficult to compare them, but the issue can be seen quite clearly here. Note how Sector Overwatch got 2 strikes off on the concript squad, before the first shell of Sector Artillery hit the conscript squad on the opposite side. This while both squads reached their destination at the same time.

In this case, both squads died at the same time, but in an ingame situation, Perimeter Overwatch will be the ability that scores hits more easily.
27 Oct 2019, 14:45 PM
#11
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13187 | Subs: 1


...
It's pretty difficult to compare them, but the issue can be seen quite clearly here. ...

Yea Over-watch look superior and the tracking issues is consistent with my in-game experience. Thanks for testing and creating the video.
27 Oct 2019, 16:14 PM
#12
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1043

I think all bunkers from all factions should have a pop cost once upgraded with an mg. Would help in team games where you turn away and the Ost/Usf have spammed bunkers all over the place.
27 Oct 2019, 16:59 PM
#13
avatar of Stark

Posts: 623 | Subs: 1

I read somewhere the idea to give StugE option to switch ammo into AI/AT like sherman can. Of course the concept wasn't to make it stug III G volt. 2 but it's to give him more defensive option vs tanks.
27 Oct 2019, 17:32 PM
#14
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1602 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 16:59 PMStark
I read somewhere the idea to give StugE option to switch ammo into AI/AT like sherman can. Of course the concept wasn't to make it stug III G volt. 2 but it's to give him more defensive option vs tanks.


Would you really want to fight against a 75 fuel tank that can fire at infantry from 50 range and switch shells to fight vehicles though? It would become somewhat like the old M-42. A blob of them is cheap and they're quite beefy and hard to hit, so if they'd have AT shells you'd have no cost effective way to counter them.

I'd say keep any buff focused on their primary role to keep the counters clear and prevent balance issues.
27 Oct 2019, 17:56 PM
#15
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13187 | Subs: 1



Would you really want to fight against a 75 fuel tank that can fire at infantry from 50 range and switch shells to fight vehicles though? It would become somewhat like the old M-42. A blob of them is cheap and they're quite beefy and hard to hit, so if they'd have AT shells you'd have no cost effective way to counter them.

I'd say keep any buff focused on their primary role to keep the counters clear and prevent balance issues.

A direct fire MOD with low performance that allow them to fire back vs light would not be bad. Could do 80 damage similar to KV8's gun.
27 Oct 2019, 18:07 PM
#16
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1602 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 17:56 PMVipper

A direct fire MOD with low performance that allow them to fire back vs light would not be bad. Could do 80 damage similar to KV8's gun.


They used to have an 80 damage direct fire gun like the CP4, which was complete a complete headache to deal with when spammed. Introducing something similar again could lead to the same problem.

The only thing I'd change in terms of AT is the vet 1 ability, which does a negligible 40 damage currently (-50% damage). Make it 80 damage and they might actually contribute something when fighting against lights. Still, it's not a priority because AT is not their role anyway.
27 Oct 2019, 18:25 PM
#17
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13187 | Subs: 1



They used to have an 80 damage direct fire gun like the CP4, which was complete a complete headache to deal with when spammed. Introducing something similar again could lead to the same problem.

The only thing I'd change in terms of AT is the vet 1 ability, which does a negligible 40 damage currently (-50% damage). Make it 80 damage and they might actually contribute something when fighting against lights. Still, it's not a priority because AT is not their role anyway.

That was a problem because it was a dual purpose munition. The suggestions here is for a AT only munition with range 40 or bellow lower ROF and relatively low DPS allowing the unit to fire back at vehicles since the current projectile is not rather useless. Even the scott can hit and damage vehicles. The alternative is to increase the speed of projectile/lower trajectory so it can actually track vehicles.

Vet 1 ability is pointless, overlaps and should be replaced. Actually the direct fire could be the vet 1 ability, or the MG upgrade or some other type of munition or some sight bonuses or a barrage or an ability similar to kv-2 locking the unit in place but offering some bonuses.

(edited)
27 Oct 2019, 18:36 PM
#18
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1602 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 18:25 PMVipper

That was a problem because it was a dual purpose munition. The suggestions here is for a AT only munition with range 40 or bellow lower ROF and relatively low DPS allowing the unit to fire back at vehicles since the current projectile is not rather useless. Even the scott can hit and damage vehicles. The alternative is to increase the speed of projectile/lower trajectory so it can actually track vehicles.

Vet 1 ability is useless and should be replaced. Actually the direct fire could be the vet 1 ability, or the MG upgrade or some other type of munition or a barrage or an ability similar to kv-2 locking the unit in place but offering some bonuses.


The ability is not useless, even if it's the worst of the stun shots. I can recall enough situations where it saved a retreating squad from a light vehicle or turned the tide against a rushing vehicle. If you've got multiple Stugs and lots of munitions to spare, you can even have them take turns firing stun shots to keep an enemy vehicle ineffective and allow your AT units to fire on it unharmed.

I still feel the only thing the Stug E needs is a modest buff to its AI. Because of the tech lock, its timing is not far off from arguably better vehicles like the Ostwind and Scott now, while it should be a viable option as a doctrinal unit.
27 Oct 2019, 18:40 PM
#19
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 818

StugE - Pintle mg would help a lot its still a weird unit that is pretty terrible vs moving units.
Also if you rush it you may not have enough cps to call it in which seems unnecessary at it's current performance level.

Concrete bunkers-They are just absurly expensive agreed on price reduction

Sector artillery- It think that giving vision of the sectors would be a good way to improve this ability, in addition to or in place of the other suggestions.
28 Oct 2019, 07:05 AM
#20
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 563

Stug e could have barrage simular to su 76 and scott. It could help it in its job at flushing entrenched opponents.
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