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OKW Flak Halftrack

28 Oct 2019, 18:54 PM
#21
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1


The direction it's moving doesn't really matter for the point I'm making - that the USF AAHT is much less susceptible to small arms (50-80% less).


It does matter, the USF AAHT is just as vulnerable because it will always be pointing its weaker rear armor towards the enemy, whether it's infantry or AT.
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28 Oct 2019, 19:58 PM
#22
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1438

Okw flak is bad? If i pre select doc with no guards its uncounterable
28 Oct 2019, 20:36 PM
#23
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 245

I don't actually think the Flak is bad for it's timing at the moment but I feel like Battlegroup HQ is too expensive in general at the moment. If you think about it, it's 70 mp 15 fuel for the truck, 200 mp and 25 fuel to drop Battlegroup and 100 mp 15 fuel for medics. That ends up being 370 mp and 55 fuel just for healing access. This delays the Flak Halftrack heavily in my opinion, if the Battlegroup was lets say 150 manpower instead of 200 and the truck came with the medic upgrade you could save 15 fuel and 150 manpower which could help you tech quicker getting Obers out faster or being able to rush the Flak HT without having to skip out on healing. The Flak comes to late if you get medics first and the rest of the truck doesn't really help with the Retreat Point being overpriced. ISG's are nice but when you could have the Luchs and the Puma you would take them instead. Mech at the moment is essentially 270 mp 60 fuel, meaning you spend 5 more fuel but you save 100 manpower which is more noticeable. Mech is generally cheaper and has better units resulting in more people going for it, the truck only becomes more expensive when you spend 100 mp 15 fuel on the mechanics but people don't tend to do this in the early game since repairs aren't as big of an issue.
29 Oct 2019, 09:06 AM
#24
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 490

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Oct 2019, 20:36 PMClarity
I don't actually think the Flak is bad for it's timing at the moment but I feel like Battlegroup HQ is too expensive in general at the moment. If you think about it, it's 70 mp 15 fuel for the truck, 200 mp and 25 fuel to drop Battlegroup and 100 mp 15 fuel for medics. That ends up being 370 mp and 55 fuel just for healing access. This delays the Flak Halftrack heavily in my opinion, if the Battlegroup was lets say 150 manpower instead of 200 and the truck came with the medic upgrade you could save 15 fuel and 150 manpower which could help you tech quicker getting Obers out faster or being able to rush the Flak HT without having to skip out on healing. The Flak comes to late if you get medics first and the rest of the truck doesn't really help with the Retreat Point being overpriced. ISG's are nice but when you could have the Luchs and the Puma you would take them instead. Mech at the moment is essentially 270 mp 60 fuel, meaning you spend 5 more fuel but you save 100 manpower which is more noticeable. Mech is generally cheaper and has better units resulting in more people going for it, the truck only becomes more expensive when you spend 100 mp 15 fuel on the mechanics but people don't tend to do this in the early game since repairs aren't as big of an issue.

You could just not buy medics right away and get the Flak first while surviving on medcrates as it is the current meta. I think OKWs fuel and tech timing is pretty balanced compared to other factions, so I would not give them an upgrade for free unless you you put the cost somewhere else.
In my eyes the Battlegroup is a good building. Can give you medics, front line reinforcement and you tech up faster than with T2.
For me it clearly comes down to the units and the current LV meta. Let's face it, probably no other building of any faction has such useful units as OKW T2. Luchs, Puma, StuKa - they're all great. But they're not really unbalanced, all prices and timings are alright. So how does Battlegroup compete woth that? IR halftrack - only useful in larger team games. ISG - decent, but OKW rarely needs early game AI power, especially not against in general more mobile Allied infantry. And the Flak - that's being discussed here, in my eyes it does not add enough value to the building.so what's there to do?
Buff by price reduction - could mess up overall OW timings and game balance.
Put Luchs or Puma into Battlegroup - would be an overall berf to OKW
Buff Battlegroup units to give them more shock value (ISG is standardized, IR halftrack has no combat power, so Flak remains)
29 Oct 2019, 09:42 AM
#25
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6375 | Subs: 1


...I think OKWs fuel and tech timing is pretty balanced compared to other factions, so I would not give them an upgrade for free unless you you put the cost somewhere else.
...

Not really, OKW have to choose between light vehicles and a very expensive healing and have to pay for truck that are better of being build in base. Most of the other faction have better tech trees that are more flexible. Actually OKW tech tree need to be improved.
29 Oct 2019, 17:38 PM
#26
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 490

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 09:42 AMVipper

Not really, OKW have to choose between light vehicles and a very expensive healing and have to pay for truck that are better of being build in base. Most of the other faction have better tech trees that are more flexible. Actually OKW tech tree need to be improved.

What does this have to do with the overall timing of OKW? Luchs/Puma come at a useful and balanced point in the game, the P4 comes also at a useful point in the game. OKWs tech tree could use a rework, but the overall costs and timings should stay the same. The medics are not expensive and can be viably bought after a couple of minutes when usually every other faction techs to medics as well.
29 Oct 2019, 17:40 PM
#27
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6375 | Subs: 1


What does this have to do with the overall timing of OKW? Luchs/Puma come at a useful and balanced point in the game, the P4 comes also at a useful point in the game. OKWs tech tree could use a rework, but the overall costs and timings should stay the same. The medics are not expensive and can be viably bought after a couple of minutes when usually every other faction techs to medics as well.

Then we agree apart from the medics not being expensive :)
29 Oct 2019, 17:47 PM
#28
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 490

Just to reinforce my point:
What does Battlegroup HQ lack that Mechanized can offer? Objectively, Battlegroup has quite some advantages, the biggest one being medics, a FRP on bigger maps (usually more useful in larger modes as well) and some fuel savings over T2. These are very good traits. OKWs design could potentially allow for a T1 infantry focused gameplay, or a T2 vehicle focused gameplay. At the moment few people play T1, although none of the units in T2 are OP by themselves. What does this tell us? Thr conclusion is that the gpod traits of T1 cannot compensate for the overall shitty units it offers
29 Oct 2019, 17:51 PM
#29
avatar of Colonel0tto
Donator 11

Posts: 89

I imagine this thread is focussed on 1v1, but I'd like to add that the flacktrack is much better in team modes and on larger maps. It can shut down areas that are difficult for an AT gun to push, and it has the advantage of being unable to be flanked easily unlike mgs. On those larger maps that's a very big advantage!
29 Oct 2019, 18:19 PM
#30
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1

Just to reinforce my point:
What does Battlegroup HQ lack that Mechanized can offer? Objectively, Battlegroup has quite some advantages, the biggest one being medics, a FRP on bigger maps (usually more useful in larger modes as well) and some fuel savings over T2. These are very good traits. OKWs design could potentially allow for a T1 infantry focused gameplay, or a T2 vehicle focused gameplay. At the moment few people play T1, although none of the units in T2 are OP by themselves. What does this tell us? Thr conclusion is that the gpod traits of T1 cannot compensate for the overall shitty units it offers


It tells us OKW needs Panzerbüchse AT-rifles in T1 :romeoPls::romeoHairDay::romeoHype:
29 Oct 2019, 20:50 PM
#31
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 490

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 17:40 PMVipper

Then we agree apart from the medics not being expensive :)


The medics are 100MP/15 FU, adding the T1 cost is misleading since you get other stuff for it. I've discussed that in another thread already, but I'm sure you know the other factions costs. To make it short: If we compare the needed MP gain for fielding 4 mainline infantry, 1 pioneer (that's usually the point in the game where it becomes worth getting medics), first tech upgrade and medic, OKW pays approximately the same as all other factions. So while they might come slightly later due to the higher Battlegroup fuel cost, OKW is fully capable of paying for them without falling behind in tech.



It tells us OKW needs Panzerbüchse AT-rifles in T1 :romeoPls::romeoHairDay::romeoHype:

If we gave every Volk a mandatory Panzerbüchse when T2 is teched, T1 would become the more attractive choice. Every problem solved, no side effects kappa :snfPeter:

29 Oct 2019, 21:00 PM
#32
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6375 | Subs: 1



The medics are 100MP/15 FU, adding the T1 cost is misleading since you get other stuff for it...

I will not get into the cost of healing since this in thread about AA HT :).
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