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russian armor

120mm mortars underperform!

26 Oct 2019, 22:20 PM
#21
avatar of Acidfreak

Posts: 172

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Oct 2019, 18:48 PMJilet
Laughs in 4v4 120mm spam...

Laughs in leig spam and counter barrage wehr mortar and lefh
26 Oct 2019, 22:24 PM
#22
avatar of Acidfreak

Posts: 172

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Oct 2019, 19:41 PMJilet
Any buffs and good luck in 4v4 as axis.

IiRC leig has more range than a 120 mm mortar. And with recent buff to the wehr mortar and its counter barrage ability i see no reason why this soviet HEAVY mortar should not the receive the same treatment.
Please also don't forget since we are talking about indirect fire, axis have access to lefh arty which is more potent than ml20. More shells= more area denial for longer period of time. Plus OP counter barrage ability. So you might want to look into that before saying 'Goodluck to axis'.
26 Oct 2019, 23:10 PM
#23
avatar of BiggusDickus

Posts: 12

It's not a regular, more powerful mortar. Regardless of the reality of how these weapons were used historically, it's balanced with low accuracy. It's good vs team weapons and great for siege work vs a defensive player. If you try to use it against mobile play styles it's a huge waste of resources.

I don't see it important enough to warrant a change. Sure maybe a pop cap adjustment or slight price reduction would help it like any other unit in the game, but it's already effective at what it does.
26 Oct 2019, 23:19 PM
#24
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1302

120mm is RNG times RNG mortar with double the buck for your boom.

Even the description says: "when it hits, it hits hard."

No UP situation at all


No, not true. The damage was nerfed to be the same as all other mortars. The AOE is larger, but that is the only advantage. The rate is only 2/3 of a normal mortar so it normally gets fewer kills. It does force a decent amount of retreats.

The cost and pop cap should be dropped to at most the same as a LEIG (270/7). I watched Crossfire play Pappy O'Daniel (sp?) yesterday. Crossfire's 2 LEIG's got 80+ kills, yet nobody ever complains about LEIGs.

Elchino7 is probably right about the vet requirements also. I try 120's once in awhile. It's rare to get them to vet 3.



26 Oct 2019, 23:47 PM
#25
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1680



No, not true. The damage was nerfed to be the same as all other mortars. The AOE is larger, but that is the only advantage...

More AoE vs smaller axis squads is simply overkill.

Even if it does less kills for being innacurate, it does force the axis player to retreat in a single blow.
Basically 120mm are mini B4's. They are at least "spammable" (you can team them up in pairs) therefore double or triple your chances to get a good hit.

High cost is probably the issue, maybe raise it up and make 120mm more accurate, at least 120mm are doctrinal
27 Oct 2019, 02:09 AM
#26
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3239 | Subs: 1



No, not true. The damage was nerfed to be the same as all other mortars. The AOE is larger, but that is the only advantage. The rate is only 2/3 of a normal mortar so it normally gets fewer kills. It does force a decent amount of retreats.

The cost and pop cap should be dropped to at most the same as a LEIG (270/7). I watched Crossfire play Pappy O'Daniel (sp?) yesterday. Crossfire's 2 LEIG's got 80+ kills, yet nobody ever complains about LEIGs.

Elchino7 is probably right about the vet requirements also. I try 120's once in awhile. It's rare to get them to vet 3.


The aoe isn't it's ONLY advantage, it also comes with more range, the barrage is great and it's available regardless of tech in a faction that heavily disuades using the tier that has access to the normal mortar.

270mp would be absolutely too cheap for the 120mm and comparing it to the leig is extremely poor given the 2 units are on opposite sides of the AoE spectrum.
27 Oct 2019, 02:54 AM
#27
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1302


The aoe isn't it's ONLY advantage, it also comes with more range, the barrage is great and it's available regardless of tech in a faction that heavily disuades using the tier that has access to the normal mortar.

270mp would be absolutely too cheap for the 120mm and comparing it to the leig is extremely poor given the 2 units are on opposite sides of the AoE spectrum.


You're trying really hard to sell it as a good unit, which it isn't. I compared it to the LEIG because its ranges are the same as the LEIG. The autofire range is 80, the same as every other mortar. The barrage range is 100. It fires every 14-15 seconds instead of every 10.

The smaller AOE of the LEIG is more than compensated by its accuracy. I don't know the exact fire rate but it seems about the same as a regular mortar. I get one or two of them in most matches and always get more out of them than I do from a 120. If they're worth 270/7 then the most that a 120 would be worth is 270/7.
27 Oct 2019, 02:55 AM
#28
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 455

If no other buffs go through, I wouldn't mind giving the 6th crewman back. Popcap is definitely too high for what this thing is actually capable of doing.

Alternatively could raise damage from 80 to 90 (lol), so this thing can actually kill a soldier or two in-between the lapses in its massively slow fire rate.
27 Oct 2019, 03:40 AM
#29
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3239 | Subs: 1



You're trying really hard to sell it as a good unit, which it isn't. I compared it to the LEIG because its ranges are the same as the LEIG. The autofire range is 80, the same as every other mortar. The barrage range is 100. It fires every 14-15 seconds instead of every 10.

The smaller AOE of the LEIG is more than compensated by its accuracy. I don't know the exact fire rate but it seems about the same as a regular mortar. I get one or two of them in most matches and always get more out of them than I do from a 120. If they're worth 270/7 then the most that a 120 would be worth is 270/7.

I'm giving it the due it deserves is what I'm doing if you arnt getting worth out if it it's because you are using it wrong. You don't rely on the auto attack, it's a bonus. The barrage is where the 120mm shines because the barrage is fairly accurate and the AOE is wide. You turn the area it's targeting into an area the enemy will take damage it's a force multiplier not solo game winner. And if you think a no tech super mortar for 270mp with penal meta WON'T be broken as hell I'd like you to PM my your drug dealer because if like to experience not living in reality for a little bit.... The 120mm is worth FAR more than 30mp more than a regular mortar. Compare it to what it's to replace not something from a different army.
27 Oct 2019, 04:49 AM
#30
avatar of Acidfreak

Posts: 172


I'm giving it the due it deserves is what I'm doing if you arnt getting worth out if it it's because you are using it wrong. You don't rely on the auto attack, it's a bonus. The barrage is where the 120mm shines because the barrage is fairly accurate and the AOE is wide. You turn the area it's targeting into an area the enemy will take damage it's a force multiplier not solo game winner. And if you think a no tech super mortar for 270mp with penal meta WON'T be broken as hell I'd like you to PM my your drug dealer because if like to experience not living in reality for a little bit.... The 120mm is worth FAR more than 30mp more than a regular mortar. Compare it to what it's to replace not something from a different army.


Why? Why shouldn't we compare with units from other armies? This game is based on asymmetrical balance. If penals are there. Doesn't okw have have t0 raketan and automatic rifle soldiers in the start? I mean who has t0 At guns? I'm just giving an example here. Hope u get the point.
27 Oct 2019, 04:51 AM
#31
avatar of Acidfreak

Posts: 172

I think this mortar needs more rate of fire and more range. Damage can be as normal mortars. It is after all a doctrinal unit.


Or more range and slightly less ROF than a normal mortar.
Remember OST have counter barrage so shouldn't be a problem IMO
27 Oct 2019, 05:17 AM
#32
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6317 | Subs: 1


The aoe isn't it's ONLY advantage, it also comes with more range, the barrage is great and it's available regardless of tech in a faction that heavily disuades using the tier that has access to the normal mortar.

270mp would be absolutely too cheap for the 120mm and comparing it to the leig is extremely poor given the 2 units are on opposite sides of the AoE spectrum.


For some magical reason, the barrage has a worst near range but better mid range than normal attack (1.5 vs 1.1 and 3.0 vs 3.5).

This means you have a smaller range of damage going from 80 to 68 but bigger from 68 to 40.


27 Oct 2019, 06:10 AM
#33
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 353

I agree that its popcap is to high, its price is to high, and vets to slow.

Its impact is not inline with these factors imo.
27 Oct 2019, 07:35 AM
#34
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2332 | Subs: 1



For some magical reason, the barrage has a worst near range but better mid range than normal attack (1.5 vs 1.1 and 3.0 vs 3.5).

This means you have a smaller range of damage going from 80 to 68 but bigger from 68 to 40.




Wait what? The AoE is profile is different between depending in the range? I am confused.
27 Oct 2019, 08:15 AM
#35
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1524


I'm giving it the due it deserves is what I'm doing if you arnt getting worth out if it it's because you are using it wrong. You don't rely on the auto attack, it's a bonus. The barrage is where the 120mm shines because the barrage is fairly accurate and the AOE is wide. You turn the area it's targeting into an area the enemy will take damage it's a force multiplier not solo game winner. And if you think a no tech super mortar for 270mp with penal meta WON'T be broken as hell I'd like you to PM my your drug dealer because if like to experience not living in reality for a little bit.... The 120mm is worth FAR more than 30mp more than a regular mortar. Compare it to what it's to replace not something from a different army.


The unit is great. Which is why no one ever uses it. I understand.

On a more serious note, to make it somewhat viable again the pop cap should be lowered as many people already said. It should also get the 6th crew-man back so it becomes more viable to use in late-game.
27 Oct 2019, 10:46 AM
#36
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6406 | Subs: 1



Wait what? The AoE is profile is different between depending in the range? I am confused.

He is referring to AOE damage profile, range from center of blast and not the range it fires.
27 Oct 2019, 10:49 AM
#37
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6406 | Subs: 1

There is little reason for extra crew member since the 120 can survive with 1 member contrary to other mortar type units.

Lowering pop by 1-2 should be ok and so is lowering XP value an vet bonus overhaul, normalizing AOE profile should be fine also.

Other than the unit is fine.

Comparison with Leig is pointless since Leig use different trajectory and its performance is greatly affected by shot blockers and the unit can not retreat.
27 Oct 2019, 11:26 AM
#38
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1

8 pop is more fair, would be the same as pak howi then.

Price should be more like 300 manpower.

Besides that it could do with a setup and teardown reduction, because together with the slow reload it's awful at keeping up with engagements.

Since the 80 damage got reduced to 68 and vet 2 range increase got removed, the cheese factor of this unit has been largaly eliminated (aside of nuking trucks), but no compensation has been given.
rqd
27 Oct 2019, 12:26 PM
#39
avatar of rqd

Posts: 65

Its barrage is still too inaccurate, I would rather trade barrage RoF for smaller scatter, so when you use barrage, it actually hits something.
27 Oct 2019, 12:41 PM
#40
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 701

Stop trying to buff allies unit, they are mostly in good spot already. The 120mm should not get pop or resource reduction imo. Vipper mentioned what i wanted to say about the 1 man retreat too. The 120mm is where it is now, because it is good already, good to use if needed to explosive damage.

It will be a nightmare in 4v4 if this unit get spam when it becomes cheaper and more survivable.
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