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russian armor

Re-balance Allied TDs penetration values

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29 Oct 2019, 12:19 PM
#161
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 14633 | Subs: 7

well i guess okw has a secret tier 5 only kat can unlock :snfPeter:

Hey guys!
Look!
Another one in denial about panthers role in game!
We need to put them down before they multiply out of control!
29 Oct 2019, 12:28 PM
#162
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7669 | Subs: 1



I think it’s more fair to say the Jagdpanzer IV is a medium tank hunter/TD specialist, while the SU85 is a heavy tank sniper/TD.

Only it is not. SU-85 is almost as good as JP4 vs mediums while being cheaper with similar pop.
And that is where the problem comes from. Either JP4 cost and pop need to close to stug/SU-76/M10 and/or its penetrations need to go close to SU-85 and/or SU-85 need to become significantly less effective vs mediums than the JP4.
29 Oct 2019, 12:36 PM
#163
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7669 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 12:01 PMKatitof

SU-85 is end tech TD.
JP4 is not.

Point with a finger which part is impossible to understand and we will all help you.

Another day of katitof trying to derail a thread with "semantics".

T4 is the "end tech" of OKW thus by definition the units come out of the are "end tech".

In addition JP4 is more expensive than the SU-85 and that solidifies as an end Tech TD.

But feel free to publish you own dictionary with you own definition (doubt that many people will buy it thou).
29 Oct 2019, 12:36 PM
#164
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4218

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 12:19 PMKatitof

Hey guys!
Look!
Another one in denial about panthers role in game!
We need to put them down before they multiply out of control!
if it's a medium TD why it's so expensive, if it's a heavy TD why it's pen so low ?

the jp4 has the price tag of an heavy TD but the pen of a medium TD
29 Oct 2019, 12:44 PM
#165
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 14633 | Subs: 7

if it's a medium TD why it's so expensive, if it's a heavy TD why it's pen so low ?

Because developers put it at that price and balance modders never seen it as an issue in the context of the faction and units performance.

the jp4 has the price tag of an heavy TD but the pen of a medium TD

What it lacks in firepower, it more then makes up in durability, being and with vet becoming even more durable then any other allied TD and having permanent self spotting built in.
29 Oct 2019, 12:46 PM
#166
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2069

Vet 5 Jagdpanzer also has first strike bonuses, significantly boosting its performance.

You can’t say it’s not as good as the SU85 when vet 5 Jagdpanzer is way better than vet 3 su85.
29 Oct 2019, 12:55 PM
#167
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7669 | Subs: 1

Vet 5 Jagdpanzer also has first strike bonuses, significantly boosting its performance.

You can’t say it’s not as good as the SU85 when vet 5 Jagdpanzer is way better than vet 3 su85.

The Vet 5 bonus used to be op now its marginally good and Vet 5 is extremely difficult to achieve.

And that is faction design vet 5 units are supposed to be better than vet 3 units...

Finally if that is your problem lets remove the hole camo mechanism and replace vet 1 ability camo ability with "tracking" (the same ability SU-85 gets) and then increase it's penetration to the same level and chance vet 5 with penetration bonuses. I am pretty sure that JP4 would see allot more action even without the camo and vet 5 first-strike bonus (which is primarily seen in 4vs4 games).
29 Oct 2019, 12:58 PM
#168
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2069

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 12:55 PMVipper

The Vet 5 bonus used to be op now its marginally good and Vet 5 is extremely difficult to achieve.

And that is faction design vet 5 units are supposed to be better than vet 3 units...

Finally if that is your problem lets remove the hole camo mechanism and replace vet 1 ability camo ability with "tracking" (the same ability SU-85 gets) and then increase it's penetration to the same level and chance vet 5 with penetration bonuses. I am pretty sure that JP4 would see allot more action even without the camo and vet 5 first-strike bonus (which is primarily seen in 4vs4 games).


The hell? I didn’t say change the Jagdpanzer IV, I said it’s not worse than SU85 since it gets way better than it after vet.
29 Oct 2019, 13:04 PM
#169
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7669 | Subs: 1



The hell? I didn’t say change the Jagdpanzer IV, I said it’s not worse than SU85 since it gets way better than it after vet.

Then you should say JP is as good as SU-85 when it vet above vet 3, currently the JP4 is not superior to the SU-85 from vet 0-3.

Now keep in mind that SU-85 has lower XP and fires at targets with higher XP values and thus vet faster.

The XP value of reaching vet is more than twice what SU-85 need to get vet 3.

(edited to clarify better)
29 Oct 2019, 13:07 PM
#170
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4218

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 12:44 PMKatitof

Because developers put it at that price and balance modders never seen it as an issue in the context of the faction and units performance.


What it lacks in firepower, it more then makes up in durability, being and with vet becoming even more durable then any other allied TD and having permanent self spotting built in.
Kat for once read the patch notes they removed the self spotting long ago, this just show u never saw a vet 2 jp proving the point futher
29 Oct 2019, 13:10 PM
#171
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4218

Vet 5 Jagdpanzer also has first strike bonuses, significantly boosting its performance.

You can’t say it’s not as good as the SU85 when vet 5 Jagdpanzer is way better than vet 3 su85.
ah yea , really ? Would u get 25% reload damage and pen for 1 sheel or permanent 30% reload and pen ? Especially since the 40 more damage is useless unless you u add snares ?
29 Oct 2019, 13:15 PM
#172
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 11:07 AMVipper

So you can't, it's ok.

JP is only slightly better than SU-85 vs mediums yet it more expensive. So that brings down you theory that SU-85 and SU-76 are "different TDs for different targets". The SU-85 can counter mediums just fine.



not exactly... the JP4 is not penetrable by any medium and has higher DPS than the SU-85 while retaining enough penetration to punch through a medium anyways... it also is capable pushing out 60 range TDs thanks to its higher DPM...

id say thats a pretty significant advantage...

not saying the JP4 is entirely fine it may use a small increase in utility by applying switchable round types... but to deny the fact that the JP4 is better against mediums than allied heavy TDs are is BS
29 Oct 2019, 13:25 PM
#173
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 14633 | Subs: 7

ah yea , really ? Would u get 25% reload damage and pen for 1 sheel or permanent 30% reload and pen ? Especially since the 40 more damage is useless unless you u add snares ?

Funny you mention reload in your example, because JP4 gets it and SU-85 does not, further cementing anti med tank role of JP4 and anti heavy role of SU-85.

Also, since when JP4 had its regular sight lowered to that of other vehicles? Last time I've checked, it still could still see further and self spot this way, just vet was removed.
29 Oct 2019, 13:43 PM
#174
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7669 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 13:15 PMgbem


not exactly... the JP4 is not penetrable by any medium and has higher DPS than the SU-85 while retaining enough penetration to punch through a medium anyways... it also is capable pushing out 60 range TDs thanks to its higher DPM...

id say thats a pretty significant advantage...

not saying the JP4 is entirely fine it may use a small increase in utility by applying switchable round types... but to deny the fact that the JP4 is better against mediums than allied heavy TDs are is BS

Care to present the DPS advantage JP4 has over SU-85 vs mediums?

Attacking a case-mate TD frontally with a medium is actually bad game-play so the armor advantage JP4 has over SU-85 vs mediums is overrated. One should be flanking and the read armor advantage is insignificant.


And read my post again I have repeatedly said that JP4 is slightly better vs mediums than SU-85 while being more expensive (and significantly worse vs heavily armored vehicles) so I have not denied anything and pls do not put words in my mouth.
29 Oct 2019, 13:43 PM
#175
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 792



That’s a horrible idea. Buffing the Panther’s AI will lead it to being spammed every game as it will have no drawbacks.


I meant making it sth like t34/85 but a bit better at AT and a bit worse at AI. I meant the complete overhaul when it comes to price and stats - making its premium medium. Then TD would take over. It is actually very similar to what Katitof suggested about removing the panther.
29 Oct 2019, 13:46 PM
#176
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7669 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 13:25 PMKatitof

Funny you mention reload in your example, because JP4 gets it and SU-85 does not, further cementing anti med tank role of JP4 and anti heavy role of SU-85.

Also, since when JP4 had its regular sight lowered to that of other vehicles? Last time I've checked, it still could still see further and self spot this way, just vet was removed.

That is incorrect SU-85 gets reload bonus with vet

Its sight is 45 in one direction which is the same FF gets with 360 view
29 Oct 2019, 13:58 PM
#177
avatar of SneakEye
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 544 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 13:25 PMKatitof
Funny you mention reload in your example, because JP4 gets it and SU-85 does not

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 13:46 PMVipper
That is incorrect SU-85 gets reload bonus with vet

Please check the vets here: https://www.coh2.org/guides/29892/the-company-of-heroes-2-veterancy-guide

They BOTH have reload bonusses in vets!
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