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Re-balance Allied TDs penetration values

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27 Oct 2019, 20:29 PM
#141
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2844

My vote is on deflection damage. Hopefully more people adopt this stance.


Driving up armour would be a very different style of play. Heavies would be utterly brutal from the front, but could be killed by one medium if it gets behind them.

It might make a fun mod, but it'd be a drastic change to the live game and I'm not sure it'll see that at this point in its lifetime.
27 Oct 2019, 20:30 PM
#142
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 1272

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 20:29 PMLago


It'd be a very different style of play. Heavies would be utterly brutal from the front, but could be killed by one medium if it gets behind them.


Not what I had in mind, more like same health as now but more armour since time to kill would stay approx the same with deflection damage.

Rear shots shouldn’t be changed because of how easy it is to land one by accident. Even shifting a bit to the side can expose rear armour.
27 Oct 2019, 20:33 PM
#143
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2844

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 20:07 PMKatitof
Reee-ing from axis players about their heavies being countered by their counters isn't really enough justification for a change - modders know that, hence not much is happening for TDs for their performance - they simply do their job.


If the Jackson needs that penetration, then surely so does the Firefly?
27 Oct 2019, 20:40 PM
#144
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6456 | Subs: 1



Is this the direction we’re headed? Removal of armour entirely and 1990 rts style health bars?

Why does armour have to be meaningless, I don’t understand.


Because armor value is low enough that is meaningless against AT guns and TDs but relevant against medium tank and other low penetration vehicles.

Not all factions have 2 vehicles which can work exclusively against medium and another one against heavies.

You'll need armor in the levels of IS2/KT for it to be relevant.

Armor below 300 is too RNG and unreliable. This is why the change on armor for both PV and Pershing made them stronger.
27 Oct 2019, 21:13 PM
#145
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13976 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2019, 20:33 PMLago


If the Jackson needs that penetration, then surely so does the Firefly?

FF gets damage(3 shots med at vet3) and tulips and I wouldn't use it as any kind of baseline for TD as unit is too gimmicky to be reliable.
29 Oct 2019, 07:56 AM
#146
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

an SU-85 nerf seems inappropriate as this unit isnt really offending balance... what is needed is a jackson cost nerf and a small FF buff...
29 Oct 2019, 09:31 AM
#147
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6637 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 07:56 AMgbem
an SU-85 nerf seems inappropriate as this unit isnt really offending balance... what is needed is a jackson cost nerf and a small FF buff...


Then a JP buff is in order since it more expensive and less effective.
29 Oct 2019, 09:44 AM
#148
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13976 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 09:31 AMVipper


Then a JP buff is in order since it more expensive and less effective.

Its more effective against mediums.
If you want it to be effective against heavies equally to SU-85, then find a way to remove panther from okw.
29 Oct 2019, 10:21 AM
#149
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6637 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 09:44 AMKatitof

Its more effective against mediums.
If you want it to be effective against heavies equally to SU-85, then find a way to remove panther from okw.

Feel free to explain how it more effective vs mediums and how that justifies to be more expensive than a TD with one of highest penetration.

The existence of Panther is irrelevant to performance of the JP4 they are separated units.
29 Oct 2019, 10:27 AM
#150
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13976 | Subs: 7

Sander explained to you plenty of times its effectiveness vs mediums.
If you didn't understood that, you aren't going to understant it when I'll do it as well, so no need to waste a breath.

Existence of panther is extremely relevant, because panther to JP4 relation is exact the same as SU-85 to SU-76 relation - different TDs for different targets. I don't see you complaining about SUs differences and how 76 doesn't have 200+ pen, I can't see why you have a problem with JP4.

You want JP4 to perform like allied end tech TD, you'd have to make it OKW end tech TD, that means stripping panther of its AT role or completely removing it.
29 Oct 2019, 10:34 AM
#151
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 668

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 10:27 AMKatitof
Sander explained to you plenty of times its effectiveness vs mediums.
... you'd have to make it OKW end tech TD, that means stripping panther of its AT role or completely removing it.


And that is a very good idea. Make panther a premium medium that can deal with infantry and armour similarly to t34/85 (a bit worse vs infantry and a bit better at vs anti tank) and make all axis TDs have 60 range and similar pen to allied TD.
29 Oct 2019, 11:00 AM
#152
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 1272



And that is a very good idea. Make panther a premium medium that can deal with infantry and armour similarly to t34/85 (a bit worse vs infantry and a bit better at vs anti tank) and make all axis TDs have 60 range and similar pen to allied TD.


That’s a horrible idea. Buffing the Panther’s AI will lead it to being spammed every game as it will have no drawbacks.
29 Oct 2019, 11:07 AM
#153
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6637 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 10:27 AMKatitof
Sander explained to you plenty of times its effectiveness vs mediums.
If you didn't understood that, you aren't going to understant it when I'll do it as well, so no need to waste a breath.

So you can't, it's ok.

JP is only slightly better than SU-85 vs mediums yet it more expensive. So that brings down you theory that SU-85 and SU-76 are "different TDs for different targets". The SU-85 can counter mediums just fine.

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 10:27 AMKatitof

Existence of panther is extremely relevant, because panther to JP4 relation is exact the same as SU-85 to SU-76 relation - different TDs for different targets. I don't see you complaining about SUs differences and how 76 doesn't have 200+ pen, I can't see why you have a problem with JP4.

You want JP4 to perform like allied end tech TD, you'd have to make it OKW end tech TD, that means stripping panther of its AT role or completely removing it.

Great lets lower the price of the JP to 100 fuel so it role is to counter mediums. After all stug SU-76 and M10 that according to theory are meant to counter only mediums are allot cheaper.

Not really, already is JP4 an end tech OKW that already cost more than SU-85. It simply does not perform as good. And it can easily coexist with Panther. One could be a dedicated long range TD with a similar role to SU-85 and the other brawler.

29 Oct 2019, 11:37 AM
#154
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 1272

The Jagdpanzer IV doesn’t perform as well as the SU85? Well that’s news to me.
29 Oct 2019, 11:38 AM
#155
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6637 | Subs: 1

The Jagdpanzer IV doesn’t perform as well as the SU85? Well that’s news to me.

Try using a JP4 vs IS-2 and SU-85 vs a KT and and come back with the results.

Su-85 has only 50-116 more penetration.
29 Oct 2019, 11:43 AM
#156
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 1272

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 11:38 AMVipper

Try using a JP4 vs IS-2 and SU-85 vs a KT and and come back with th4e results.


The results are quite good. You get to farm vet (vet 5 jagdpanzer is a monster) and alongside a couple raketens you can keep the IS2/KV2/KV8/KV1 on constant repair. Jagdpanzer does a marvellous job vs mediums as well. It’s a great choice for late game AT and couple nicely with a Konigstiger.

I don’t care about comparisons in a vacuum, the SU85 and Jagdpanzer IV are very similar units, tho I prefer the Jagdpanzer for its rate of fire, armour, target size and camo at vet 5.
29 Oct 2019, 11:48 AM
#157
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6637 | Subs: 1



The results are quite good. You get to farm vet (vet 5 jagdpanzer is a monster) and alongside a couple raketens you can keep the IS2/KV2/KV8/KV1 on constant repair. Jagdpanzer does a marvellous job vs mediums as well. It’s a great choice for late game AT and couple nicely with a Konigstiger.

I don’t care about comparisons in a vacuum, the SU85 and Jagdpanzer IV are very similar units, tho I prefer the Jagdpanzer for its rate of fire, armour, target size and camo at vet 5.

They are yet the SU-85 is cheaper, has a similar ROF up to vet 3 a similar target size, lower XP value and allot more penetration.
29 Oct 2019, 12:01 PM
#158
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13976 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 11:48 AMVipper

They are yet the SU-85 is cheaper, has a similar ROF up to vet 3 a similar target size, lower XP value and allot more penetration.

SU-85 is end tech TD.
JP4 is not.

Point with a finger which part is impossible to understand and we will all help you.
29 Oct 2019, 12:08 PM
#159
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4079

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Oct 2019, 12:01 PMKatitof

SU-85 is end tech TD.
JP4 is not.


Point with a finger which part is impossible to understand and we will all help you.
well i guess okw has a secret tier 5 only kat can unlock :snfPeter:
29 Oct 2019, 12:12 PM
#160
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 1272

well i guess okw has a secret tier 5 only kat can unlock :snfPeter:


I think it’s more fair to say the Jagdpanzer IV is a medium tank hunter/TD specialist, while the SU85 is a heavy tank sniper/TD.
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