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Re-balance Allied TDs penetration values

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25 Oct 2019, 05:47 AM
#61
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 345

Just buffing the ATG penetrations while lowering TD penetrations is also a solution IMO. (Except panther since it “must” fight allied heavies and flamehrowing tanks with high armor values thus it needs a cost increase to 200. For my other suggestion see my page 1 post)
25 Oct 2019, 08:00 AM
#62
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1524

People pretend like not having 100% penetration at max range vs Panther will suddenly make Jackson and SU 85 bad. Meanwhile the Firefly doesn't have this penetration either and on top has horrible mobility and slow reload. In my proposal, Allied TDs would still have an almost guaranteed chance to penetrate Panthers. It doesn't serve to just make Axis better but to make the Firefly suck less in comparison to SU 85 and Jackson.

Tigers get penetrated so easily by Jacksons and SU 85 that the armour feels almost completely meaningless. This also applies to a lesser extend to KT and even Ele and JT.

Medium tanks are in a bad spot now, I agree with that. But the solution to that is to delay heavy tanks by giving them all 10 or 11 CP + build time. The KT is fine as it is due to tech cost and overall price but all the other heavies should be changed in that way.
25 Oct 2019, 08:20 AM
#63
avatar of Grim

Posts: 757

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Oct 2019, 05:47 AMJilet
Just buffing the ATG penetrations while lowering TD penetrations is also a solution IMO. (Except panther since it “must” fight allied heavies and flamehrowing tanks with high armor values thus it needs a cost increase to 200. For my other suggestion see my page 1 post)


If you want ATGs to be relevant then we will need to change the walking stuka as that thing simply destroys support weapons.

I would much rather see the game focus about medium tank and ATG play as the main meat of armour play. With less focus on panthers and TDs.
25 Oct 2019, 08:37 AM
#64
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1524

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Oct 2019, 08:20 AMGrim


If you want ATGs to be relevant then we will need to change the walking stuka as that thing simply destroys support weapons.

I would much rather see the game focus about medium tank and ATG play as the main meat of armour play. With less focus on panthers and TDs.


ATG get evaporated on both sides. Doesn't matter if it's Stuka, Pwerfer, Lefh, Calliope, Katyusha, Sexton, LM, Priest, ML20, B4, etc.
25 Oct 2019, 10:45 AM
#65
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 883

People pretend like not having 100% penetration at max range vs Panther will suddenly make Jackson and SU 85 bad. Meanwhile the Firefly doesn't have this penetration either and on top has horrible mobility and slow reload. In my proposal, Allied TDs would still have an almost guaranteed chance to penetrate Panthers. It doesn't serve to just make Axis better but to make the Firefly suck less in comparison to SU 85 and Jackson.

Tigers get penetrated so easily by Jacksons and SU 85 that the armour feels almost completely meaningless. This also applies to a lesser extend to KT and even Ele and JT.

Medium tanks are in a bad spot now, I agree with that. But the solution to that is to delay heavy tanks by giving them all 10 or 11 CP + build time. The KT is fine as it is due to tech cost and overall price but all the other heavies should be changed in that way.


The more I think about this, the more I think accuracy should be a primary factor in this, not a small rng chance to miss once in 20 shots. TDs should have an accuracy advantage over MBTs, not just pen. In this case the Panther would have an armour and HP advantage over a TD, but the TD would have the accuracy advantage from range and would win unless the panther flanks and closes in.
25 Oct 2019, 10:58 AM
#66
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1969 | Subs: 3

In this case the Panther would have an armour and HP advantage over a TD, but the TD would have the accuracy advantage from range and would win unless the panther flanks and closes in.


Tank destroyers already have the accuracy advantage over the Panther at medium and long range.
Quite significantly so in case of the Firefly and the SU-85.


Panther has 0.06/0.045/0.035 accuracy at ranges 0/25/50, and 24 target size.

SU-85 has 0.06/0.045/0.04 accuracy at ranges 0/30/60, and 18 target size;
Jackson has 0.05/0.045/0.035 at ranges 0/30/60, and 24 target size;
Firefly has 0.06/0.05/0.04 (0.066/0.055/0.044 with Tank Commander) accuracy at ranges 0/45/60 and 23 target size.
25 Oct 2019, 11:03 AM
#67
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 883



Tank destroyers already have the accuracy advantage over the Panther at medium and long range.
Quite significantly so in case of the Firefly and the SU-85.


Panther has 0.06/0.045/0.035 accuracy at ranges 0/25/50, and 24 target size.

SU-85 has 0.06/0.045/0.04 accuracy at ranges 0/30/60, and 18 target size;
Jackson has 0.05/0.045/0.035 at ranges 0/30/60, and 24 target size;
Firefly has 0.06/0.05/0.04 (0.066/0.055/0.044 with Tank Commander) accuracy at ranges 0/45/60 and 23 target size.


Might just be the combat distances then. With how short they are compared to real life it’s hard to simulate accuracy like in Steel Division 2 for instance.

Perhaps a good solution would be to divide hits into hits and critical hits, with TDs being more likely to score crits when they pen. You could then increase armour a bit. TDs would still fight off heavies, and armour would matter more.
25 Oct 2019, 11:12 AM
#68
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13780 | Subs: 7



Might just be the combat distances then. With how short they are compared to real life it’s hard to simulate accuracy like in Steel Division 2 for instance.

Perhaps a good solution would be to divide hits into hits and critical hits, with TDs being more likely to score crits when they pen. You could then increase armour a bit. TDs would still fight off heavies, and armour would matter more.

But armor already matters significantly against literally every mechanized unit that isn't being shot at by TD, so you're asking for what's already in game.
25 Oct 2019, 12:06 PM
#69
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3971

just nerf the reload rate and add 40 deflection damage to both su 85 and m36
25 Oct 2019, 12:07 PM
#70
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 345

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Oct 2019, 08:20 AMGrim


If you want ATGs to be relevant then we will need to change the walking stuka as that thing simply destroys support weapons.

I would much rather see the game focus about medium tank and ATG play as the main meat of armour play. With less focus on panthers and TDs.


10/10 agreed but would want to see the same thing for Katyusha+Werfer while still retaining their anti blob power.
25 Oct 2019, 12:11 PM
#71
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2726

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Oct 2019, 12:07 PMJilet
10/10 agreed but would want to see the same thing for Katyusha+Werfer while still retaining their anti blob power.


You could make AT guns require infantry to clear out pretty easily by giving their crews 50% explosive damage resistance.

The problem is rocket artillery actually is for clearing out late-game team weapon walls.

Try playing UKF into a heavy support weapon build and you'll see how much you need heavy indirect to clear them out.
25 Oct 2019, 12:14 PM
#72
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 345

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Oct 2019, 12:11 PMLago


You could make AT guns require infantry to clear out pretty easily by giving their crews 50% explosive damage resistance.

The problem is rocket artillery actually is for clearing out late-game team weapon walls.

Try playing UKF into a heavy support weapon build and you'll see how much you need heavy indirect to clear them out.


IMO rocket arty(especially) is more for anti blob purposes. You can use shell arty to clear out atgs and mgs but against blobs it is often useless compared to rocket artys fast response time.
25 Oct 2019, 12:19 PM
#73
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2726

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Oct 2019, 12:14 PMJilet
IMO rocket arty(especially) is more for anti blob purposes. You can use shell arty to clear out atgs and mgs but against blobs it is often useless compared to rocket artys fast response time.


You don't have nondoctrinal howitzers.

As a dedicated blob counter, rocket arty is meh because it comes out so late. That's more the purpose of machine guns.
25 Oct 2019, 15:30 PM
#74
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 294 | Subs: 1


Panther pretty much fights IS2 on equal terms and Panther is stock and so is KT. Churchill is less of a problem now as comet is finally an attractive choice so many Brit players pick Hammer tech.



By equal terms you mean a half-health IS2 vs a full-health Panther, right?

IS2 has more health and an insane armour advantage. At long range a Panther has less than 60% chance to pen, while IS2 is at 85%. A 41% chance to deflect vs a 15% chance to deflect puts them on "equal terms"? At virtually all ranges the IS2 will deflect shots about 2.5 times more often.

The Panther is great but the IS2 certainly dominates it in the head-to-head matchup. The "equal terms" engagement only arises when the IS2 is firing at infantry for the first 3 or 4 shots while the Panther plinks away at the IS2 for the first 15 to 20 seconds.
25 Oct 2019, 15:33 PM
#75
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3240 | Subs: 1




By equal terms you mean a half-health IS2 vs a full-health Panther, right?

IS2 has more health and an insane armour advantage. At long range a Panther has less than 60% chance to pen, while IS2 is at 85%. A 41% chance to deflect vs a 15% chance to deflect puts them on "equal terms"? At virtually all ranges the IS2 will deflect shots about 2.5 times more often.

The Panther is great but the IS2 certainly dominates it in the head-to-head matchup. The "equal terms" engagement only arises when the IS2 is firing at infantry for the first 3 or 4 shots while the Panther plinks away at the IS2 for the first 15 to 20 seconds.
or if by some statistical anomaly the panther is able to shoot at the is-2 without the is-2 being able to return fire somehow.
25 Oct 2019, 15:38 PM
#76
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3971

or if by some statistical anomaly the panther is able to shoot at the is-2 without the is-2 being able to return fire somehow.
ah no way we don't count range advantage here, i mean stug is perfect td and su 85 ff and m36 is only 10 range advantage, we don't count it :snfPeter::snfPeter:
25 Oct 2019, 17:17 PM
#77
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 798

People pretend like not having 100% penetration at max range vs Panther will suddenly make Jackson and SU 85 bad.


Sure, just nerf PaK and Raketens to not have 100% pen against everything allied have too.
25 Oct 2019, 18:46 PM
#78
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1524

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Oct 2019, 17:17 PMzerocoh


Sure, just nerf PaK and Raketens to not have 100% pen against everything allied have too.


Since when do they have 100% pen against all Allied vehicles?
25 Oct 2019, 19:21 PM
#79
avatar of Pereat

Posts: 50

At least we all agree that firefly is bad..
25 Oct 2019, 19:28 PM
#80
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3971

It's not bad
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