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Re-balance Allied TDs penetration values

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24 Oct 2019, 15:02 PM
#1
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1891

There has been a lot of crying recently about Axis armour being too weak and one thing many people ignore is that there is a pretty big difference between the Allied TDs in terms of penetration.

When you look at the 3 main Allied TDs it would appear that they each have a special character to them.

SU 85 is cost-effective and has good reload but no turret, on top it can self spot at the cost of mobility.

Then you have the Jackson, a super mobile TD that is perfect to chase Axis tanks and get the final shots in to secure a kill. This mobility also means it's easier for the Jackson to get out of difficult situations (like facing Pak40s, Raks or handheld AT).

The third one is the Firefly. Bad mobility and the high price would make you think that the main-gun makes up for it by being an absolute beast. But in reality this, for some reason, isn't the case. I will ignore the reload-speed and damage per shot of the Firefly because opinions about it are divided. I personally prefer short reload 160 DPS over long reload and 200 DPS (or 240 with vet).



What I find really strange however is this:

Jackson has 260/240/220 that goes up to 338/312/286 with vet and 390/364/325 with HVAP

SU 85 has 240/230/220 that goes up to 312/299/286 with vet

Firefly has 260/240/210 that stays the same at all vet levels.



Shouldn't the Firefly have at least equal penetration out of all the Allied 60 range TDs considering price, mobility and long reload?

IMO Jackson, SU 85 and Firefly should all get the same 260/240/210 vet 0 penetration values and lose their penetration buffs with vet. Instead, give them something that suits their role. Jackson could get a speed buff or target size reduction instead of the penetration vet buff and SU 85 could get either target size reduction or something else that isn't related to accuracy, penetration and reload.

This change would make Allied TDs have a better-defined character and Axis armour would get a slightly more relevant when facing them.

And, the now completely ignored HVAP, (it's simply useless when you penetrate easily with normal rounds anyway) would be used again and become relevant.


Edit:

Or as an alternative SU 85, Jackson and SU-85 could start at 240/220/200 and get a vet 2 buff by 20% to 288/264/240.

That way the insane penetration values of SU85 and Jackson would be solved while the FF got some help and stops being so lackluster in comparison.
24 Oct 2019, 15:14 PM
#2
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1891

To make it more easy to understand what those penetration values mean

At max range:

Firefly (Vet3) vs.

Panther 80% (73% at vet2)
Tiger 70%
KT 56%

Jackson and SU 85 (Vet3)
Panther 100% (Vet 2 100%)
Tiger 95%
KT 76%

Jackson HVAP Vet 3

Panther 100%
Tiger 100%
KT 87%
24 Oct 2019, 15:25 PM
#3
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3184

The Firefly needs a rework. It's balanced around Tulips and that just doesn't hold up these days.

The Jackson and SU-85 are harder: the Jackson is all but flat out better, but they're both products of their faction designs.

The SU-85 is balanced against a pair of SU-76s much like a Panther is balanced against two StuGs, whereas the Jackson is this anti-everything-with-wheels monstrousity because it has to be.
24 Oct 2019, 15:28 PM
#4
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2002

Nerf the Jackson. Not by increasing fuel cost by 5, but actually nerf it.
24 Oct 2019, 15:32 PM
#5
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3184

Nerf the Jackson. Not by increasing fuel cost by 5, but actually nerf it.


But you can't. If it were that simple, it would have been done.

The Jackson is what it is because Relic designed a faction with one nondoctrinal AT vehicle. The Jackson does everything because any vehicle that counters the Jackson counters the entire USF motor pool.

If you want to make the Jackson more geared towards killing heavy vehicles like the SU-85 or Panther, you need to add another TD to the nondoctrinal lineup to handle the anti-medium work.
24 Oct 2019, 15:34 PM
#6
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1891

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2019, 15:32 PMLago


But you can't. If it were that simple, it would have been done.

The Jackson is what it is because Relic designed a faction with one nondoctrinal AT vehicle. The Jackson does everything because any vehicle that counters the Jackson counters the entire USF motor pool.

If you want to make the Jackson more geared towards killing heavy vehicles like the SU-85 or Panther, you need to add another TD to the nondoctrinal lineup to handle the anti-medium work.


USF AT-guns are probably the best in the entire game if you have some muni to burn. Not sure if that is a really good argument. You also get snares on all Riflemen.

Then doctrinally you have EZ8, 76 Sherman with HVAP, tripple elite Zooks on Rangers.

No one wants to make Jacksons bad but why do they need to have 300+ penetration is beyond me.
24 Oct 2019, 15:35 PM
#7
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3654 | Subs: 1

Nerf the Jackson. Not by increasing fuel cost by 5, but actually nerf it.

Increase mp by 10?

Su85 imo needs to lose some vet 0 pen. It gets a huge bonus at vet 2 so I think it isn't unreasonable to dial it down a bit as it's sort of the inverse of the old panther where you have a high base value increased by a high modifier.
I also really don't like the idea of a self spotting TD. I know focus sight has drawbacks but it's a bit more over the top imo.

Jackson I can't see a thing wrong with it. I mean that as in there is nothing bad about it. It needs an exploitable weakness.

Firefly imo just needs MORE pen. Given the cost and mobility it should be one of the most reliable TDs not the least. And now that the brits have snares perhaps locking tulips behind vet and making the unit work well without would be a good route.
24 Oct 2019, 15:51 PM
#8
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2002


Increase mp by 10?

Su85 imo needs to lose some vet 0 pen. It gets a huge bonus at vet 2 so I think it isn't unreasonable to dial it down a bit as it's sort of the inverse of the old panther where you have a high base value increased by a high modifier.
I also really don't like the idea of a self spotting TD. I know focus sight has drawbacks but it's a bit more over the top imo.

Jackson I can't see a thing wrong with it. I mean that as in there is nothing bad about it. It needs an exploitable weakness.

Firefly imo just needs MORE pen. Given the cost and mobility it should be one of the most reliable TDs not the least. And now that the brits have snares perhaps locking tulips behind vet and making the unit work well without would be a good route.


I wouldn’t touch the SU85 for a different reason. SU has the weakest non-doctrinal T4 of alln factions, so I don’t think it should be nerfed even more. Self spotting itself has a drawback in that it takes a few secs to switch, while you may not even need it if you have the T70 next to it.

100% agree on the Jackson. I personally would drop its cost to 140 and either nerf its mobility or HP.

Firefly needs a buff for sure, especially with the new Comet.
24 Oct 2019, 15:53 PM
#9
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2002

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2019, 15:32 PMLago


But you can't. If it were that simple, it would have been done.

The Jackson is what it is because Relic designed a faction with one nondoctrinal AT vehicle. The Jackson does everything because any vehicle that counters the Jackson counters the entire USF motor pool.

If you want to make the Jackson more geared towards killing heavy vehicles like the SU-85 or Panther, you need to add another TD to the nondoctrinal lineup to handle the anti-medium work.


Bullshit, the Jackson literally hunts and kills every tank in the game with its range, pen and mobility. Meanwhile as SU I have the SU76 that can’t pen mediums half the time, the SU85 that has no turret and no mobility, and the T34/76 that can’t pen anything. Do I get the Jackson? No I get told “too bad”.

Jackson should be nerfed, either mobility decrease or HP decrease. USF has AT guns with super pen/rof and bazookas, never mind the plethora of Doctrinal AT help.
24 Oct 2019, 15:56 PM
#10
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1891

I think Firefly is more or less fine, it's just the Jackson and to a lesser extend the SU 85 that are making it look bad.

Making all three have the same penetration value would make things a lot more balanced. Jackson would still have the most penetration if the player decides to go HVAP. Right now no one uses HVAP because it's completely pointless against anything but KT/JT/Ele.
24 Oct 2019, 15:57 PM
#11
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2002

I think Firefly is more or less fine, it's just the Jackson and to a lesser extend the SU 85 that are making it look bad.

Making all three have the same penetration value would make things a lot more balanced. Jackson would still have the most penetration if the player decides to go HVAP. Right now no one uses HVAP because it's completely pointless against anything but KT/JT/Ele.


If the SU85 gets a pen nerf, there better be a pen buff for the T34/76.
24 Oct 2019, 15:59 PM
#12
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1891



Bullshit, the Jackson literally hunts and kills every tank in the game with its range, pen and mobility. Meanwhile as SU I have the SU76 that can’t pen mediums half the time, the SU85 that has no turret and no mobility, and the T34/76 that can’t pen anything. Do I get the Jackson? No I get told “too bad”.

Jackson should be nerfed, either mobility decrease or HP decrease. USF has AT guns with super pen/rof and bazookas, never mind the plethora of Doctrinal AT help.


Agree with a lot of things but the SU 85 is actually very fast at vet 3. It has even more top speed than the Jackson. It's another very odd thing about Allied TDs but it's true nonetheless.

Jackson vet 0 and vet 3 mobility: 6.5/3
SU 85 Vet0 and vet 3 mobility: 5.7/2.1 and 6.8/2.5

Of course Jackson still has way more mobility because of the turret and acceleration but still the SU85 isn't slow.
24 Oct 2019, 16:02 PM
#13
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1891



If the SU85 gets a pen nerf, there better be a pen buff for the T34/76.


The base pen could go to 260/240/210 (which would be a slight buff overall). It's just the veterancy penetration buff that would be deleted in my proposal. The base pen for Jackson, SU85 and Firefly could also be moved to maybe 260/240/230 instead. Would still be better than the current stats that make the FF have way less penetration even though it should be at least equal due to mobility, reload and cost.
24 Oct 2019, 16:03 PM
#14
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 702

Should nerf the Jackson's HP a bit, and then counter-nerf the Panthers so they all have 720 HP. Suddenly lone Jacksons can be fought off better by Panzer IVs, and Panthers are no longer so difficult to deal with that they require dedicated TD deployment.

SU-85 honestly seems fine, only looks great because the rest of the Soviet stock AT lineup is somewhat subpar. Firefly IDK, I didn't think its penetration was so low, to be honest.




Also, if we go the way of penetration nerfs, deflection damage for TDs might be nice.
24 Oct 2019, 16:05 PM
#15
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2002



Agree with a lot of things but the SU 85 is actually very fast at vet 3. It has even more top speed than the Jackson. It's another very odd thing about Allied TDs but it's true nonetheless.

Jackson vet 0 and vet 3 mobility: 6.5/3
SU 85 Vet0 and vet 3 mobility: 5.7/2.1 and 6.8/2.5

Of course Jackson still has way more mobility because of the turret and acceleration but still the SU85 isn't slow.


Sorry, meant to say no hunting capacity to chase down, due to 50% moving accuracy and no turret or turning speed. Straight line speed it’s indeed great.
24 Oct 2019, 16:06 PM
#16
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2002



The base pen could go to 260/240/210 (which would be a slight buff overall). It's just the veterancy penetration buff that would be deleted in my proposal. The base pen for Jackson, SU85 and Firefly could also be moved to maybe 260/240/230 instead. Would still be better than the current stats that make the FF have way less penetration even though it should be at least equal due to mobility, reload and cost.


I wouldn’t mind, but then I’d like the SU85 to get something else good from vet since extra pen is the biggest highlight. You can’t have a vet 3 andn a vet 0 su85 having negligible differences.
24 Oct 2019, 16:10 PM
#17
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1891



I wouldn’t mind, but then I’d like the SU85 to get something else good from vet since extra pen is the biggest highlight. You can’t have a vet 3 andn a vet 0 su85 having negligible differences.


I agree about that. Maybe something like the JP4 cloak at vet 3 could be good.
24 Oct 2019, 16:13 PM
#18
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7620 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2019, 15:25 PMLago
The Firefly needs a rework. It's balanced around Tulips and that just doesn't hold up these days.

The Jackson and SU-85 are harder: the Jackson is all but flat out better, but they're both products of their faction designs.

The SU-85 is balanced against a pair of SU-76s much like a Panther is balanced against two StuGs, whereas the Jackson is this anti-everything-with-wheels monstrousity because it has to be.

Only it is not and people do not built SU-76.


jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2019, 15:32 PMLago

But you can't. If it were that simple, it would have been done.

The Jackson is what it is because Relic designed a faction with one nondoctrinal AT vehicle. The Jackson does everything because any vehicle that counters the Jackson counters the entire USF motor pool.

If you want to make the Jackson more geared towards killing heavy vehicles like the SU-85 or Panther, you need to add another TD to the nondoctrinal lineup to handle the anti-medium work.

Relic also designed UKF with one AT vehicle the FF and it worked up with having the FF being a monstrosity so the argument does not hold much water. Keep in mind that the original design of M36 worked when first realist and it was the changes to OStheer T4 and OKW Tech that made the old m36 not viable.

The idea that M36 need to be able to deal with everything from kubel to KT is simply flawed. It also the reason why other vehicles see little action although they are extremely cost effective.


Imo
1) Super heavies need to be delayed
2) Panther should also be delayed
3) TDs need to be redesigned as "medium" TDs and "(Super) heavy" TDs so that they are cost efficient counter to their respective targets.
4) Tds should become less effective at max range with changes including lower accuracy/ROF and/or penetration at max range.

If this units actually need more penetration that could come on each vet level like +5% for each level.
24 Oct 2019, 16:16 PM
#19
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 198

With AT infantry and AT guns being killed frontally by the Tigers and dedicated tank destroyers bouncing on the Tigers this game is going to be more interesting and balanced. Everyone will have to play sov airborne with IL2 rocket strafe and Snare-34/76. +1 from me.
24 Oct 2019, 16:16 PM
#20
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4217

With AT infantry and AT guns being killed frontally by the Tigers and dedicated tank destroyers bouncing on the Tigers this game is going to be more interesting and balanced. Everyone will have to play sov airborne with IL2 rocket strafe and Snare-34/76. +1 from me.
cough... is-2.. cough Churchill cough
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