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Thoughts on World Championship 2019 so far?

23 Oct 2019, 18:34 PM
#21
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 2872



It would be easier to make grens build from base and see what 80 extra manpower but no faust grens look like
I don't think it's coincidence that Ostheer is, for the most part, only faction which is spending manpower on tech at the start of the game. Especially considering what like 40-60 mp differences in the OKW opening did to USF vs OKW balance

They did just change gren vet 3 last patch


I’d keep the core of Ostheer as a support weapon faction.

I’d make the mg42 300mp but slightly faster deploy/pack up and better tracking, then I’d make the mortar faster in tracking targets and moving left/right to aim.
23 Oct 2019, 18:56 PM
#22
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1217



I’d keep the core of Ostheer as a support weapon faction.

I’d make the mg42 300mp but slightly faster deploy/pack up and better tracking, then I’d make the mortar faster in tracking targets and moving left/right to aim.


Good ideas. I'd think of 60 range td too. Most games I've seen so far would bleed out axis with scotts killing 4 men elite infantry squads (from both ostheer and okw). Scotts were screened by elite infantry (sometimes with bazookas) mixed wth rifles and supported by Jacksons an AT guns. Once in a while cluster bombs (too cheap imo) would add to the powerful mix of units. Very effective. Scotts backed with long range TDs and strong infantry at the front are just really difficult to fight even for best players. You have to really lucky with some indirec fire. OKW may be lucky with some stuka zu fuss barrages, but still the power of bazookas and jacksons plus other at options is a lot. Panthers don't really help here.
23 Oct 2019, 19:19 PM
#23
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7287 | Subs: 1

Bug splat op , tightrope can confirm


So painful, even more considering his timezone.
23 Oct 2019, 19:20 PM
#24
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1217



It would be easier to make grens build from base and see what 80 extra manpower but no faust grens look like
I don't think it's coincidence that Ostheer is, for the most part, only faction which is spending manpower on tech at the start of the game. Especially considering what like 40-60 mp differences in the OKW opening did to USF vs OKW balance

They did just change gren vet 3 last patch


Another option would be to just make them more expensive and simply better (high time for 5 men maybe?) leaving them where they are (only because tier 1 building would have only mortar and sniper if they were in tier 0).
23 Oct 2019, 21:12 PM
#25
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 817



I’d keep the core of Ostheer as a support weapon faction.

I’d make the mg42 300mp but slightly faster deploy/pack up and better tracking, then I’d make the mortar faster in tracking targets and moving left/right to aim.




Another option would be to just make them more expensive and simply better (high time for 5 men maybe?) leaving them where they are (only because tier 1 building would have only mortar and sniper if they were in tier 0).


I think both of those changes are more interesting, But I think the problem ostheer has is they cap slower so it's tougher to take advantage of the map to get manpower efficient engagements and tougher to get fast tech.
Skipping t1 resolves both of these problems but locks you into some kind of doctrine early or leaves you with a weird mg heavy army.

When they had the Puma to catch-up in the light vehicle game this mattered less and Ostheer was a stronger pick as you had a way to make up for the early weakness if necessary. When you are relying on the 222 as your light vehicle counter it's nothing to get excited for.
23 Oct 2019, 21:21 PM
#26
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 2872





I think both of those changes are more interesting, But I think the problem ostheer has is they cap slower so it's tougher to take advantage of the map to get manpower efficient engagements and tougher to get fast tech.
Skipping t1 resolves both of these problems but locks you into some kind of doctrine early or leaves you with a weird mg heavy army.

When they had the Puma to catch-up in the light vehicle game this mattered less and Ostheer was a stronger pick as you had a way to make up for the early weakness if necessary. When you are relying on the 222 as your light vehicle counter it's nothing to get excited for.


That is indeed an issue. A possible solution would be to give them an extra 50mp at the start and add it to the cost of BP1.
23 Oct 2019, 22:16 PM
#27
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8723 | Subs: 1



That is indeed an issue. A possible solution would be to give them an extra 50mp at the start and add it to the cost of BP1.

Or we can stop buffing everything use Ostheer as a benchmark and bring other factions down to Ostheer levels...
23 Oct 2019, 22:21 PM
#28
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 2872

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Oct 2019, 22:16 PMVipper

Or we can stop buffing everything use Ostheer as a benchmark and bring other factions down to Ostheer levels...


Yes, or you can nerf allied factions, which defeats the purpose of the previous okw nerf.

23 Oct 2019, 22:41 PM
#29
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 364

From what I played and have seen this is kind of how it see the game so far.
1. Brits are probably the weakest allied faction but I think they can work against OKW on certain maps such as Crossroads or Faymonville. Some players may prefer them to Soviets in the current patch.
2. Soviets seem alright but are generally better against OKW as long as you go for the Double Engineer, Double Penal, M3 opening and make sure to put in as much damage with the M3 during its window.
3. Ostheer and OKW seem to come down more to personal preference to some extent and also the map you are playing on but I think Ostheer struggles against the light vehicle pressure and infantry USF has access to. After the M20 nerfs I don't think OKW has as hard of a time dealing with it now. I would maybe give the slight edge to Ostheer since I think they are better against Brits and Soviets but with USF being probably the overall best faction I think OKW is certainly very viable.
4. I think USF is probably the strongest allied faction overall but I don't think it's by a large margin, they are able to put the most pressure on in the early game and have great infantry but they have some slight flaws that keep them from being the de-facto best faction.

I actually think the maps have a larger impact on balance at the moment as Langres North is still at a large disadvantage and the current automatch version of Kholodny Ferma favors the west player substantially. Ideally, I don't think Langres should be in the tourney pool and hopefully we get the current version of Kholodny in automatch soon since 4 veto's is not enough. Plus I think Heavy call-ins need a CP increase of 2-3 across the board since heavy call-in stall seems to still be meta which was kind of the point of tying them to tech in the first place.

1v1 Factions (Ranked)
1. USF
2. Ostheer (interchangeable with OKW)
3. OKW (interchangeable with OST)
4. Soviets
5. Brits
23 Oct 2019, 22:48 PM
#30
avatar of WhiteFlash
Senior Mapmaker Badge
Benefactor 119

Posts: 1151 | Subs: 1

Soviets, USF, Ostheer and OKW all seem Viable, brits I didn't see enough of yet.


honestly balance seems reasonably solid

+1
23 Oct 2019, 23:12 PM
#31
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1217



But I think the problem ostheer has is they cap slower so it's tougher to take advantage of the map to get manpower efficient engagements and tougher to get fast tech.

That used to be my pet peeve a while ago. Slower capping used to be connected with those heavy tanks that were supposed to roll over allies lategame. Allies were supposed to win quickly or die. No longer valid.

Another funny thing I used to want to draw attention to was that long range units will often be outside capping circle so that they can fight against close range units effectively. Often the best tactics for allies was to be shot at from a distance but still cap - no ostheer unit wants to close in to stop that - must shoot from a distance to be effective. If they close the distance to stop the capping they will lose. I saw many games when it was decisive in tight end game victory points decaps. (US officer squads speed bonus help often, too).


Skipping t1 resolves both of these problems but locks you into some kind of doctrine early or leaves you with a weird mg heavy army.

When they had the Puma to catch-up in the light vehicle game this mattered less and Ostheer was a stronger pick as you had a way to make up for the early weakness if necessary. When you are relying on the 222 as your light vehicle counter it's nothing to get excited for.


Not much to add here.
24 Oct 2019, 05:41 AM
#32
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 826



honestly balance seems reasonably solid

+1


It would be interesting to see what the pick rates for each faction are

Then it would give a wider balance picture
26 Oct 2019, 10:36 AM
#33
avatar of konfucius

Posts: 128

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Oct 2019, 15:41 PMddd
I was watching multiple streams during tournament and every usf game was lost except voivans games. And despite all the crying on this forum, ostheer was picked very often with great results, there were even underdog stories like bulat vs noggano. Ofc noggano lost with usf against ost.


jump backJump back to quoted post23 Oct 2019, 15:04 PMddd
Ostheer: 80% winrate

USF: 10% winrate

I think ostheer needs some heavy nerfs, panzergrenadiers need to be delayed and ability to skip tech structures removed. Their units got buffed to ridiculous level, there is no excuse to keep tech skipping anymore.




holy shit, you must be the only person playing the same game I'm playing for reals, baffles me people don't realise how ridiculous wehr tech skip play style is right now
9 Nov 2019, 18:34 PM
#34
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1156

I just watch some games, hans lunvest vonivan ties.

Allies seems to dominate! Especially Usf.

Time to nerf bat them some!

Any more comments?
9 Nov 2019, 19:31 PM
#35
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1363 | Subs: 3

Any more comments?


Yes, can you please stop posting and just enjoy the matches.

Discussion can come afterwards.
9 Nov 2019, 19:34 PM
#36
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 2872



Yes, can you please stop posting and just enjoy the matches.

Discussion can come afterwards.
9 Nov 2019, 19:46 PM
#37
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3242

I just watch some games, hans lunvest vonivan ties.

Allies seems to dominate! Especially Usf.

Time to nerf bat them some!

Any more comments?


You are aware that, if you did get your wishlist of nerfs, you wouldn't win any more games?

The matchmaker will just give you stronger opponents to make up the balance deficit.

Your ranks won't go up either, because you're ranked against other people playing Ostheer and they'd all gain the same 'advantage' too.

Faction vs faction balance only really makes a difference in tournaments and at the extreme ends of the ladder. Outside of them, the main goal of balance patches is strategic diversity.
10 Nov 2019, 02:09 AM
#38
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7287 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Nov 2019, 19:46 PMLago


You are aware that, if you did get your wishlist of nerfs, you wouldn't win any more games?

The matchmaker will just give you stronger opponents to make up the balance deficit.

Your ranks won't go up either, because you're ranked against other people playing Ostheer and they'd all gain the same 'advantage' too.

Faction vs faction balance only really makes a difference in tournaments and at the extreme ends of the ladder. Outside of them, the main goal of balance patches is strategic diversity.


:hansGG:
10 Nov 2019, 08:31 AM
#39
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15647 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Nov 2019, 19:46 PMLago


You are aware that, if you did get your wishlist of nerfs, you wouldn't win any more games?

The matchmaker will just give you stronger opponents to make up the balance deficit.

Your ranks won't go up either, because you're ranked against other people playing Ostheer and they'd all gain the same 'advantage' too.

Faction vs faction balance only really makes a difference in tournaments and at the extreme ends of the ladder. Outside of them, the main goal of balance patches is strategic diversity.

I've got to say, that's probably the smartest thing said on these forums this year.
10 Nov 2019, 09:26 AM
#40
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1156

But i don't care about the glory and the wins of rankings. I hope we can make this game unique and fairer especially Wehr whose design have been continually diluted over time
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