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Ideas Regarding Infantry Sections

21 Oct 2019, 21:18 PM
#1
avatar of Vermillion_Hawk

Posts: 16

The recent patch has not been kind to what was the standard Brit meta, which I feel was entirely justified. That being said, I feel that there is a lot of room for improvement, much of it focused around the Infantry Section. It's a weird unit that every Brit player is forced to use, and sits on a knife edge between extremely effective and absolute crap depending on the combat situation.

I think most can agree that the original design for the unit, centred around a very necessary Bolster upgrade and the cover bonus, is not tenable or even particularly fun to play against. As such, I had a few suggestions regarding how to change the unit with its current performance in mind, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on them. This is not an exhaustive list of all changes I think should be implemented at once, but rather some of the ones I've been spitballing.

Hammer Gammon Bombs Become Sticky

I'm not sure why the Hammer Gammon Bomb has remained the way it has. It's effective at taking down garrisons if your opponent isn't paying attention at all, and for destroying ambient buildings, but is utterly useless at its stated anti-tank role. It's a massive munitions investment for one explosive which doesn't even have the utility of the Penals' anti-tank satchel.

I feel it deserves the same treatment as the original satchel. This would fix the glaring hole of infantry snares that the faction still suffers from, while also giving tanks enough of a standoff range to engage the Infantry Sections. They're still the least effective mainline infantry unit while on the move, so leaving cover to throw a Gammon Bomb would be a risky move.

Lock Combat Penalties Behind Bolster

I'm not even certain if this is possible, but instead of Bolster being a straight upgrade to the Infantry Sections, what I'm proposing instead is this - 4-man Tommies don't have the received accuracy penalties out-of-cover they currently possess, and possess the current cover bonus permanently (and therefore get nothing extra from being in cover). When they are upgraded to 5-man Tommies, their accuracy is reduced and the necessity of the cover bonus is reinstated.

I personally enjoy playing with 4-man squads, and I almost never go for the Bolster upgrade, but it's obvious that the faction was designed around it. Therefore, I want to change this. Make 4-man squads combat effective enough without Bolster, and make Bolster inflict penalties on the squad in exchange for the extra man.

This is probably the riskiest proposal, and it would require looking at the economics of the Infantry Section again, but I really want to see Bolster as a choice instead of a requirement. I'd ideally like to see a tradeoff between larger, tankier 5-man squads versus more mobile but riskier 4-man squads.

Reintroduce a Recon Section

This has been suggested before, but I like the idea of an Infantry Section upgrade that gives Scoped Enfields. Ideally, these would fill a similar role as Pathfinders and Jaeger Light Infantry, and it would possibly be locked behind 4-man squads exclusively. As Brits lack for indirect fire, another unit capable of picking off squads in cover would be nice. Admittedly I've probably thought about this proposal the least.

What do you think?
21 Oct 2019, 21:32 PM
#2
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 662

The formula is simple.

4man sections - 1 weapon slot, can have medkit or pyro
5man sectioms - 0 weapon slots cannot upgrade.

My fav change however would be to make sections default 5men with 1 slot and pyro/medkit and the bolster upgrade for 6 men and no slots or upgrades.

Edit: obviously nerfing 5men sections to not have slots would mean an accompanying buff to stock sections to compensate and make the 5man upgrade attractive. Same with the 6man version.
21 Oct 2019, 21:36 PM
#3
avatar of Raxzero

Posts: 7

Good suggestions. Especially about Hammer Gammon Bombs. They're locked behind an unfavourable tech path, costs a lot, has a long fuse and has a very short range. Letting them work as a vehicle satchel can make Hammer more favourable and they won't be OP because they're locked last tier of UKF tech and still has very short range. At least, with this, they can work as something other than very expensive bunker-destroyers.

I think removing their extra moving accuracy penalty while they're 4-men could work as well. With this, UKF can have offensive and defensive options at every tier. T1-Offensive 4-men Sections, Defensive 5-men sections; T2-Offensive AEC, Defensive Bofors; T3-Offensive Hammer, Defensive Anvil. It would be really appropriate for faction's theme.
21 Oct 2019, 22:55 PM
#4
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 493 | Subs: 1

The formula is simple.

4man sections - 1 weapon slot, can have medkit or pyro
5man sectioms - 0 weapon slots cannot upgrade.

My fav change however would be to make sections default 5men with 1 slot and pyro/medkit and the bolster upgrade for 6 men and no slots or upgrades.

Edit: obviously nerfing 5men sections to not have slots would mean an accompanying buff to stock sections to compensate and make the 5man upgrade attractive. Same with the 6man version.


What an absolute waste of an idea for an army which has three different weapons they can take from racks which are specifically designed with section/RE/Commando versions.

Also, a massive nerf for literally no reason. Why the hell would tommies only get one weapon slot? Even obers get two.
21 Oct 2019, 23:03 PM
#5
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 1916

The formula is simple.

4man sections - 1 weapon slot, can have medkit or pyro
5man sectioms - 0 weapon slots cannot upgrade.



welp, thank god you are not in the balance team
21 Oct 2019, 23:06 PM
#6
avatar of Vermillion_Hawk

Posts: 16

The formula is simple.

4man sections - 1 weapon slot, can have medkit or pyro
5man sectioms - 0 weapon slots cannot upgrade.

My fav change however would be to make sections default 5men with 1 slot and pyro/medkit and the bolster upgrade for 6 men and no slots or upgrades.

Edit: obviously nerfing 5men sections to not have slots would mean an accompanying buff to stock sections to compensate and make the 5man upgrade attractive. Same with the 6man version.


I'm not a fan of 6-man Sections, and I would rather not make 5 men the standard squad size. I like the design philosophy of the Brits as a smaller, more well-trained force within the Allies, and I think giving 4-man Sections advantages over 5-man Sections would speak to this, as well as add a bit of versatility to the faction.

I also think that, in your proposal there, I'd rather 5-man Sections get an extra weapon slot as opposed to having theirs removed.
21 Oct 2019, 23:16 PM
#7
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 493 | Subs: 1

Back on the original suggestions: Sticky gammons would be fantastic. Are they the same range as satchels right now?
21 Oct 2019, 23:31 PM
#8
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 662



What an absolute waste of an idea for an army which has three different weapons they can take from racks which are specifically designed with section/RE/Commando versions.

Also, a massive nerf for literally no reason. Why the hell would tommies only get one weapon slot? Even obers get two.


Good question: why do conscripts only get one slot? Even Obers get 2. (Seriously I agree with you. Also I suggested 1 to kill double brens sections which I think are unbalanced)
21 Oct 2019, 23:33 PM
#9
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 662



I'm not a fan of 6-man Sections, and I would rather not make 5 men the standard squad size. I like the design philosophy of the Brits as a smaller, more well-trained force within the Allies, and I think giving 4-man Sections advantages over 5-man Sections would speak to this, as well as add a bit of versatility to the faction.

I also think that, in your proposal there, I'd rather 5-man Sections get an extra weapon slot as opposed to having theirs removed.


Reason I suggested removing it was to make it more of a choice: do you go extra man and miss out on an lmg, or do you go 4man and get an lmg? Quite a few people have agreed that bolster shouldn’t be a no brainer.

The gist of what I’m suggesting is this: make both unbolstered and bolstered sections competitive and balanced, with the bolstered version having a drawback to make bolstering a decision and not a no brainer. I’m not sure how to do that because I don’t play Brits much so my specifics will obviously be lacklustre. I’m sure the core of my idea is solid and someone with better game and faction knowledge could make it work.



welp, thank god you are not in the balance team


Same, people have a terrible perception of English and I’d be bored to death trying to explain simple things.

See the reply above for the current topic.
21 Oct 2019, 23:50 PM
#10
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 1916



Reason I suggested removing it was to make it more of a choice: do you go extra man and miss out on an lmg, or do you go 4man and get an lmg? Quite a few people have agreed that bolster shouldn’t be a no brainer.

The gist of what I’m suggesting is this: make both unbolstered and bolstered sections competitive and balanced, with the bolstered version having a drawback to make bolstering a decision and not a no brainer. I’m not sure how to do that because I don’t play Brits much so my specifics will obviously be lacklustre. I’m sure the core of my idea is solid and someone with better game and faction knowledge could make it work.



Same, people have a terrible perception of English and I’d be bored to death trying to explain simple things.

See the reply above for the current topic.


see this is what I dont get, why does a person that barely ever plays brits act like an authority on this topic??? Most likely you have no idea about the current issues of brit faction.

In case these "competitive 5men sections" as well as "competitive 4men sections with bren" are worse than current 5men double bren sections, then your idea is useless af. (and how do you wanna make 4men squad stronger than live version 5men brens without making them OP af?)

Current sections struggle hard vs smart green cover gameplay with volks, obers, pgrens etc. even if fully upgraded and heavily rely on massive HMG, flamer, vehicle etc support... 3 things that can be exploited by the opponent. Doesnt matter if vickers gets buffed
21 Oct 2019, 23:52 PM
#11
avatar of Vermillion_Hawk

Posts: 16

Back on the original suggestions: Sticky gammons would be fantastic. Are they the same range as satchels right now?


I'm not 100% on if they have the exact same range but's definitely at least half that of a standard grenade if not less. Essentially I wouldn't mind the Gammon Bomb just copying the current AT Satchel.
21 Oct 2019, 23:59 PM
#12
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 662



see this is what I dont get, why does a person that barely ever plays brits act like an authority on this topic??? Most likely you have no idea about the current issues of brit faction.

In case these "competitive 5men sections" as well as "competitive 4men sections with bren" are worse than current 5men double bren sections, then your idea is useless af. (and how do you wanna make 4men squad stronger than live version 5men brens without making them OP af?)

Current sections struggle hard vs smart green cover gameplay with volks, obers, pgrens etc. even if fully upgraded and heavily rely on massive HMG, flamer, vehicle etc support... 3 things that can be exploited by the opponent. Doesnt matter if vickers gets buffed


How the hell am I acting like an authority on the topic? It’s literally just an idea based on what I’ve seen/played with/played against/read about to make bolster a choice and not a no brainer, which other players have also suggested before. I am terribly sorry to have offended you by offering details, next time I’ll make sure to dumb it down to the basic concept to avoid offending you.

Also, the perfect example of what I had in mind was the STG obers vs LMG obers. Both are very strong, yet used differently. It’s the same concept I’d like to see implemented with bolster. Make it so both choices are attractive, depending on the situation at hand.
22 Oct 2019, 00:03 AM
#13
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 959 | Subs: 1



Good question: why do conscripts only get one slot? Even Obers get 2. (Seriously I agree with you. Also I suggested 1 to kill double brens sections which I think are unbalanced)


They got a weapon slot removed back when the meta was UKF/SOV double vicker drop for cons spam in 2v2+. It turned cons into 6 man terminators with vet so they decided to tone it down by removing a weapon slot.
22 Oct 2019, 00:08 AM
#14
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 662



They got a weapon slot removed back when the meta was UKF/SOV double vicker drop for cons spam in 2v2+. It turned cons into 6 man terminators with vet so they decided to tone it down by removing a weapon slot.


It was tongue in cheek, double pickup cons would be ridiculous. Just imagine picking up 2 panzershreks to go with their 6man squad, snare and sprint.
22 Oct 2019, 00:55 AM
#15
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3099 | Subs: 1

I've posted it before but seeing as this is a fancy purpose built threat I'll toss er out again:

Adjust Tommies to be viable for cost as 4 models (the current version feels quite weak and absolutely ineffective)

Make 5 man squads a per squad upgrade that is exclusive to medics and pyro

All upgrades take up a slot

Medic remains unchanged

Pyro adds smoke barrage (maybe separate extra barrage tied to the mortar pit? Might make that more relevant)
Add in sniper Enfield
Keep increased visibility
Rename forward observer sections

This way you have multiple paths
4 man sections are heavy on firepower but low on utility with 2 slots but no bells and whistles

Medics provide the best healing in the game at the cost of reduced combat potential

Forward observer grants indirect support and scouting

5 man sections bring enhanced durability and an extra rifle. The most straightforward and clear advantage, but at the cost of a slot so the others remain attractive

Doctrinally the Thompson Tommies would remain as their own clear and unique choice.

Brens would need a rework to be viable as single weapons and not overwhelming as a pair, but I think that it's manageable.
22 Oct 2019, 00:56 AM
#16
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3099 | Subs: 1



It was tongue in cheek, double pickup cons would be ridiculous. Just imagine picking up 2 panzershreks to go with their 6man squad, snare and sprint.

Way back when each model could pick up a weapon. That was really something...
22 Oct 2019, 01:04 AM
#17
avatar of Heavy Sapper

Posts: 354

I like the idea of applying target size penalty only with 5 man sections, and want to add some of my ideas to it.

So, infantry sections wilk stat as a 4 man squad, have 0.8 target size both in and out of cover, instead of 2 slot, they have only 1 slot, but have an upgrade give them 1 bren lmg onthe field, like gren 's Mg42, available after platoon Cp. Then, bolster and weapons rack get a rework.

Weapons rack research unlock bren gun and piat to pick up at base. So you can come back to get double bren on a 4 man sections with size of 0.8 full time.

Bolster now an upgrade you must purchase separately for each squad with some munition and have to reinforce to get 5th man. This upgrade will apply the out of cover target size penalty of 0.9 on the squad and also take up the only weapon slot the squad have. So, you can have a more durable 5 man squad but only with 1 bren gun and some penalty.

I hope this can make sections become more versatile with the ability to get weapons on the field, and make bolster and rack become choices to take, each with advantages and drawbacks of it own.
22 Oct 2019, 01:06 AM
#18
avatar of Heavy Sapper

Posts: 354

BTW, sticky gamon bomb is great ideal. Maybe it can stay behind a minor upgrade, so i still can keep normal gammon, or upgrade to have sticky ones.
22 Oct 2019, 01:52 AM
#19
avatar of PanzerFutz

Posts: 95


Make 5 man squads a per squad upgrade that is exclusive to medics...


This makes sense.

...and pyro...


This does not make sense, given you risk a squad-wipe every time you lay the flares.


All upgrades take up a slot


This makes a lot of sense but, it would make the most sense if Bolster was removed and UK infantry came as 5-man teams by default.


Pyro adds smoke barrage
Add in sniper Enfield
Keep increased visibility
Rename forward observer sections


Eminently sensible suggestions but, they don't address the lack of a good stock unit that can attack on the move. All the Tommy-nerfing suggestions I've seen so far completely ignore this reality for the UK.
22 Oct 2019, 02:07 AM
#20
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4485

Good question: why do conscripts only get one slot? Even Obers get 2. (Seriously I agree with you. Also I suggested 1 to kill double brens sections which I think are unbalanced)


I believe Combat Engineers have 3. It's strange that Conscripts have 1 while everyone else's Infantry get 2 including Penals. That plus the target size, cost, mandatory sidetech, no weapon upgrades, and reserves costing their only weapon slot - must mean that Relic is keeping Conscripts heavily chained because they fear the true power of the Soviet.
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