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Ideas For Improving The UK Faction

21 Oct 2019, 15:04 PM
#1
avatar of PanzerFutz

Posts: 97

Here are some of the ideas people have been suggesting on all the other threads about the UK faction. I thought I'd condense them into one post and put my own spin on them.

1. Remove Bolster. Yes, Bolster used to be unique but, it isn't anymore so there's no need to keep it. Just make UK infantry units 5-man squads and be done with it. Leave the cost of the units the same and spread the Bolster cost over the other tech upgrades (Weapons Rack unlock, Grenade unlock, UC upgrade, T1 unlocks). 280 mp for a 5-man Infantry Section is the same as the 5-man US Rifleman and it's not unreasonable.

Sure, the Axis factions have 4-man units that cost 300+ MP but, they're armed with StG-44's as stock. The Infantry Sections start with bolt-action rifles only and they're designed to fight from static positions. And, while it's true that the Grenadiers are only a 4-man team, the Ostheer faction has 3 different stock infantry units plus a couple of 5-man doctrinal units which can be bolstered to 6 men. The UK has only 2 stock infantry units and only 1 doctrinal unit which isn't just a variant of their stock units.

I would leave the Cover Bonus/Movement Penalty mechanism intact because, it is still something unique to the faction - even if it does make it harder for the Brits to attack. I would fix that problem another way.

2. Make the Royal Engineers a true close-quarters combat unit. The RE's are armed with a CQ weapon, the Sten, but it's too weak to allow them to perform this role to any great effect. To address this, the RE's should receive a Thompson upgrade (gain 2 Thompson's, lose one slot). This would boost their combat potential and give the faction a true close-quarters unit as stock. Of course, their cost would have to be raised because, they would now be a 5-man squad with serious combat ability from the start.

Furthermore, if the UC Wasp was removed to doctrine, as has been suggested, then it could be swapped with the infantry flamethrowers in the 2 doctrines that have them and the RE's would receive the flamers as another stock upgrade. These two mutually-exclusive upgrades would make the RE's quite versatile as a combat unit, fit for either close-quarters or garrison-clearing work.

The RE's might be subject to mission overload, given all their abilities, but I believe their new strength would be sufficiently attractive that players would be willing to build more of them. A player could kit them out to suit the role they intended them to fill.

3. Give Pyro Sections a WP Smoke Barrage. The UK faction needs more smoke options in the early game. This would fix the issue. The Brits also need better ways to de-garrison and de-crew in the early game, given how weak the Wasp is (especially without smoke cover) and the limited range of static mortars. This would help fix that issue also.

Using the Barrage requires the Pyro upgrade and unlocking the Company CP before it can be used so, it isn't as cheesy as some people allege. Additionally, until the Battalion CP is unlocked, only one gun can provide fire so, the barrage would be quite limited during the early game. It would only become truly effective once both guns were operational.

4. Buff UK vehicle MG's. It's pretty obvious from other posts that British vehicle MG's are considered the worst in the game and fixing them would help balance the faction in the later stages of games. The UK faction doesn't get any pintle-mounted guns but, there's no reason why the MG's they do have should be worse than other factions.

I admit I'm no expert but, I do play the faction regularly enough to be aware of its deficiencies. These are just some ideas about how those deficiencies might be addressed. I'm not interested in discussing whether or not this faction is balanced compared to other factions but, I am open to thoughts about how these suggestions might affect the balance of the game. Cheerio.
21 Oct 2019, 15:35 PM
#2
avatar of Freestyler1992

Posts: 88

To be honest and in my opinion, two things need to be done and it would fix the UKF faction in big ways.

Firstly, the vickers needs more suppression. This means you can have more staying power and not needing to lean only on swarms of tommies. Tone down it's damage a bit for all I care, just make it able to keep units swarming it in check!

Secondly, tommies need more assault options without a doctrine. Smgs as a side tech on tier 2 would be really nice. Thompsons, grease guns, stolen mp40s, I don't care. Perhaps even ppsH? Just give them something so they can be formidable assault troops!

I think this would fix many an issue with UKF. Now, if you would ask me my dream scenario, it would be to get rid of the mortar emplacement and just give me a mobile non doc mortar.
21 Oct 2019, 15:37 PM
#3
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

I think the assault troop absence would be less painful if RE, as proposed, had some decent CQC power. They don't need to become assgren replacements, but giving them the option to invest in some firepower would be a big help for maps where knife fighting is nothing short of mandatory. I imagine it would lock out the sweeper to boot.
21 Oct 2019, 15:40 PM
#4
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

4. Buff UK vehicle MG's. […] fixing them would help balance the faction in the later stages of games


For the record, vehicle MGs do not deal that much damage late game, because they do not scale with veterancy (they get no accuracy bonus, meaning that as enemy infantry gets lower Received Accuracy, the MGs deal less damage) and abundant yellow cover (craters everywhere) means they almost permanently deal 50% less damage. Tank MGs only shine in the late mid game into early late game when tanks first start appearing.

Furthermore while UKF tanks do have worse MGs than other factions' tanks, they usually have other traits in return. The Cromwell and Comet are very fast and agile, and the Cromwell has a very good potential shock timing (235 fuel, or 270 fuel with Bolster). The Churchill has 1400 health. Buffing the MGs on these tanks to Panzer IV / T-34 levels would risk giving them too much shock value.

I personally think UKF tanks are pretty much fine right now. The Churchill is still good, the Comet is good now, the Centaur is great, and the Cromwell is good as long as you can get it out early.
21 Oct 2019, 17:29 PM
#5
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 818



For the record, vehicle MGs do not deal that much damage late game, because they do not scale with veterancy (they get no accuracy bonus, meaning that as enemy infantry gets lower Received Accuracy, the MGs deal less damage) and abundant yellow cover (craters everywhere) means they almost permanently deal 50% less damage. Tank MGs only shine in the late mid game into early late game when tanks first start appearing.

Furthermore while UKF tanks do have worse MGs than other factions' tanks, they usually have other traits in return. The Cromwell and Comet are very fast and agile, and the Cromwell has a very good potential shock timing (235 fuel, or 270 fuel with Bolster). The Churchill has 1400 health. Buffing the MGs on these tanks to Panzer IV / T-34 levels would risk giving them too much shock value.

I personally think UKF tanks are pretty much fine right now. The Churchill is still good, the Comet is good now, the Centaur is great, and the Cromwell is good as long as you can get it out early.


If they have too much shock value you can work around that by improving AI performance with veterancy 1 or 2 rather than default.

The cromwell may have speed but doing 10-30% less damage vs infantry(whatever the number may be) is a significant disadvantage from other mediums as they provide value through map control. Mgs are often the difference between a squadwipe and a squad getting away, more model losses will always help with scaling.

If the Cromwell comes to early or brit tech costs too little that should not impact the mg performance on the vehicle, those issues should be addressed separately. As the centaur is even cheaper and more potent vs infantry than the Cromwell, an improved Cromwell is not something one would expect players ready for a centaur could not handle.
21 Oct 2019, 18:21 PM
#6
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 556

WP barrage is a little too much tho.USF gives a whole commander slot for that.
22 Oct 2019, 03:59 AM
#7
avatar of PanzerFutz

Posts: 97

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 18:21 PMJilet
WP barrage is a little too much tho.USF gives a whole commander slot for that.


USF has non-doc regular smoke options in every tech level. The UK has only the fixed mortar pit until tanks are built* and it lacks infantry that are good at fighting on the move. (*Unless you count the AEC's Concealing Smoke.)

I think even a regular smoke barrage would be enough; I just thought WP might make it a bit more useful.
22 Oct 2019, 07:29 AM
#8
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2114 | Subs: 2

My main dislike for the British is the stupid artillery design at the Main Base: an unreliable but cheaper infantry marker. Or 100 ammunition commander ability of which can no longer be used in the fog of war, is just as stupid if standard artillery could not be shot in the fog of war.
I would like to redesign the Artillery so that I myself can give an indication of where I need the strike.
22 Oct 2019, 09:09 AM
#9
avatar of Stark

Posts: 623 | Subs: 1



For the record, vehicle MGs do not deal that much damage late game, because they do not scale with veterancy (they get no accuracy bonus, meaning that as enemy infantry gets lower Received Accuracy, the MGs deal less damage) and abundant yellow cover (craters everywhere) means they almost permanently deal 50% less damage. Tank MGs only shine in the late mid game into early late game when tanks first start appearing.

Furthermore while UKF tanks do have worse MGs than other factions' tanks, they usually have other traits in return. The Cromwell and Comet are very fast and agile, and the Cromwell has a very good potential shock timing (235 fuel, or 270 fuel with Bolster). The Churchill has 1400 health. Buffing the MGs on these tanks to Panzer IV / T-34 levels would risk giving them too much shock value.

I personally think UKF tanks are pretty much fine right now. The Churchill is still good, the Comet is good now, the Centaur is great, and the Cromwell is good as long as you can get it out early.


If we look at the tank section then yeah, Brits are pretty much fine. If Cromwell hull mg buff would be consider (which i suggested earlier in exchange in ac/speed buff) then price has to go up.

Honestly, i feel like Brits aren't in a bad spot right now just their build is linear. Lack of diversity makes faction vulnerable on certain strategies - mainly on 1v1 where more mobile gameplay is needed.

Do you guys consider making any sort of revamp to Brits of course after the turney? There are units in a game files that could be added to the faction to add some diversity. My call would be to implement: Artillery officer as CQC elite infantry equipt with phosphorus granade (could work as a sight blocker for mg and clearning units in houses) and USF M5 HT - reinforcing platform that can be upgraded into mortar HT - that would solve the issue with lack of tools vs mg spam. Units would be available after upgrading any side tech in T1. Another tool that would help - AEC and bofors no longer exclusive could be interesting combo.

Faction bases only on one type of infantry squad without any substitutes. More stuff that supports them is better overrall
22 Oct 2019, 17:26 PM
#10
avatar of NorthFireZ

Posts: 211



For the record, vehicle MGs do not deal that much damage late game, because they do not scale with veterancy (they get no accuracy bonus, meaning that as enemy infantry gets lower Received Accuracy, the MGs deal less damage) and abundant yellow cover (craters everywhere) means they almost permanently deal 50% less damage. Tank MGs only shine in the late mid game into early late game when tanks first start appearing.

Furthermore while UKF tanks do have worse MGs than other factions' tanks, they usually have other traits in return. The Cromwell and Comet are very fast and agile, and the Cromwell has a very good potential shock timing (235 fuel, or 270 fuel with Bolster). The Churchill has 1400 health. Buffing the MGs on these tanks to Panzer IV / T-34 levels would risk giving them too much shock value.

I personally think UKF tanks are pretty much fine right now. The Churchill is still good, the Comet is good now, the Centaur is great, and the Cromwell is good as long as you can get it out early.


Cromwell has about twice the Infantry kill time in comparison to the P4. Cromwell MG definitely needs to be better.
22 Oct 2019, 20:25 PM
#11
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358



Cromwell has about twice the Infantry kill time in comparison to the P4. Cromwell MG definitely needs to be better.

Cromwell fights easier to kill infantry squads. Therefore average TTK is properly balanced.



IMO, I find OP ideas rather boring if not counter productive. To remove bolster and make 5 man IS is just a plain stupid Buff to IS after they got nerfed, because they were Overperformant in early stages of the game.

With regards RE being "true cqc troops" is another bad idea, because If RE were buffed to combat levels, they would not only overperform by themselves being 5-man but also break the current faction balance and design, even when sturmpios are the most effective combat engineer squad, they do have lots of downsides and are forced to stand back after the first 5 min of the game because they are simply too damn expensive. RE would get all the benefits of the design but none of the downsides if OP ideas are implemented. RE would be able to carry a bren+thompsons or heavy Engie upgrade+thompsons and that is stupid OP.

WP was already addressed its a doctrinal tool is not fair to give it to UKF as stock, it would unleash powercreeps amongst all allied factions
23 Oct 2019, 02:06 AM
#12
avatar of PanzerFutz

Posts: 97


IMO, I find OP ideas rather boring if not counter productive.


Well, they're not my ideas; I just condensed them from posts on all the other threads about what's wrong with the UK faction and then expanded on them a little.

...break the current faction balance and design...


This faction is already broken; that's why so many people are complaining about it. It needed to be broken because, it was poorly designed. Now it needs to be fixed. Specifically, what needs to be addressed is the lack of a stock infantry unit that can fight well on the move (like every other faction has in abundance) and the lack of early game smoke options. The fixed mortar pit just doesn't cut it.

WP was already addressed its a doctrinal tool is not fair to give it to UKF as stock


Yep, I've come around to this view, now that I've had a bit of time to think about it. WP is so rare in this game that giving it to one faction as stock would be wrong. However, giving Pyro's a Smoke Barrage is definitely an idea whose time has come (finally). Funny thing is, IRL, the British use of the term "pyrotechnic" specifically meant smoke & flares, yet in this game they have no smoke.
23 Oct 2019, 02:32 AM
#13
avatar of PanzerFutz

Posts: 97

Factional units that can fight well on the move:

Ost -
Stock: PGrens;
Doc: Ass Grens, Jaegers and G43-equipped squads

OKW -
Stock: StPios, Volks with StG44's;
Doc: Falls, Jaegers and StG44 Obers

US -
Stock: Riflemen & Officers
Doc: Rangers, Paras, Cavalry RM, Ass Engies, (even Elite Vehicle Crews are better than anything the UK has)

Sov -
Stock: Penals
Doc: Shocks, Guards (of any variety)

UK -
Stock: ? :unsure:
Doc: ? :unsure:

All units armed with 9 mm sub-machineguns have been deliberately omitted.
23 Oct 2019, 03:20 AM
#14
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

Sadly a UKF vs USF/SU clash is not posible, therefore no need to "balance" the "lack of units that fight on the move"

Stpios are meaningless after min 5. Lets not cherrypick for the sake of it.
Stg volks come after min 10 or even later, as soon as any IS could get a bren gun, even when its not the often seen strategy, IS CAN get bren guns at min 10 without trouble.

Lets turn the tides and list all the "stationary fighting troops" simply because troops are able to stand their ground all the time they want, but fight on the move only when assaulting an already occupied location. With the amount of cover in each map there should not be trouble to move from cover to cover easily.
I would even argue that is harder to stop an IS squad to reach cover than said squad to fight off any 1v1 threat after getting into cover.

Lastly commandos "9mm smg" has a weapon profile of an assault gun, wich means it deals more damage farther than the so called "SMG" gun profile, used by Ost Pios and assgrens.

UKF has tools, people dont like them, but they are.
23 Oct 2019, 04:21 AM
#15
avatar of PanzerFutz

Posts: 97


UKF ... people dont like them


UKF lacks tools that other factions take for granted. This can be covered by teammates in larger games but, in 1v1 it's a big penalty. Pretending that the UK doesn't suffer from a lack of options does not make it true.


IS CAN get bren guns at min 10 without trouble.


I wasn't aware that Brens could shoot on the move. Maybe we're playing different games.


Lastly commandos...


I left Commandos & Stormtroopers out because, they are designed to fight from ambush. They're not assault troops, even if they can be used that way. It also doesn't help that Commandos either come with an expensive glider or come as an under-strength unit that needs to be retreated to base and reinforced before it is worth anything.

I believe the faction is broken, which is why I am open to ideas about how to fix it.

Obviously, you don't think the faction is broken, which is why the only idea you've offered is some smoke for the Pyro's. That was your idea, wasn't it?
23 Oct 2019, 05:08 AM
#16
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

I wasn't aware that Brens could shoot on the move. Maybe we're playing different games.

On this particular point i stand corrected because i messed up IS with commandos, the latter can actually fire brens on the move

and you probably missed to pair up the units roles. Because stormtroopers are more related to infiltration commandos than the actual glider commando squad. The last one is able to withstand just enough to make them worth to close the gap, the first two at plain field are just dead meat.


Obviously, you don't think the faction is broken, which is why the only idea you've offered is some smoke for the Pyro's. That was your idea, wasn't it?

Before anything, i've posted so much more ideas than just a dumb pyro smoke, you could start reading more than writing. It also amazes me than someone can really underestimate the utility of a smoke cloud, but maybe that is related more to skill level and strategy

Firstly i do not have the same perspective as yours.
Second it is not me who has troubles with UKF design.
Third but not least there are better ways than throwing balance out of a window and suggest too much buffs and undo the lastest patches nerfs.
The most solid factions design have both, team game oriented units and solo matches oriented units. IS was such a cornerstone on both game modes it made the faction OP and the last nerf proved it. Now other units should balance the faction as it should be, maybe using emplacements for team games and AEC/RE/doctrinal units for 1v1.
23 Oct 2019, 06:16 AM
#17
avatar of PanzerFutz

Posts: 97


commandos ... can actually fire brens on the move


Ok, maybe I should have included them on the list for that reason and I probably should have included the new Assault upgrade for Infantry Sections. However, that's still only 2 doctrines out of 9 that have units that can fight on the move. I still believe the UK needs at least one stock unit that can do it.


...underestimate the utility of a smoke cloud...


Maybe you should re-read the post from the beginning because, I agree that the UKF needs to have Pyro smoke added. It was one of the suggestions given; I thought it was your idea.


Firstly i do not have the same perspective as yours.


Obviously.


... throwing balance out of a window and suggest too much buffs


I was not suggesting that every idea should be implemented. I was trying to focus the discussion onto which ideas would actually help. I think Pyro smoke and a stock fight-on-the-move unit are important enough to warrant serious consideration; changes to Bolster and MG's... not so much. Other people feel differently.
23 Oct 2019, 07:17 AM
#18
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

I don't know what alternate reality there is where sturmpios are not potent CQC squads at any time point. But particularly since their vet shakeup, they are currently a huge threat in this timeline. Early access to the stun grenade has helped them in a big way.

As for the Cromwell - 'allies fight 4 man' is an argument that hasn't been relevant since 2014. Ostruppen are 6. Elite infantry grens and pios are 5. Volks are 5. Pfusis are 5 or 6. Jager command is 5.

Even 4 man grens now have a recieved damage reduction (after rangers lost it) that means single explosions now are much harder to wipe models with.

An MG buff to let the cromwell do anything when the main gun isn't hitting is just a baseline QoL improvement. Nobody liked all or nothing tank shells. See the t-34/76, which is cheaper, but also has a good mg profile.
23 Oct 2019, 08:54 AM
#19
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

I don't know what alternate reality there is where sturmpios are not potent CQC squads at any time point. But particularly since their vet shakeup, they are currently a huge threat in this timeline. Early access to the stun grenade has helped them in a big way.

As for the Cromwell - 'allies fight 4 man' is an argument that hasn't been relevant since 2014. Ostruppen are 6. Elite infantry grens and pios are 5. Volks are 5. Pfusis are 5 or 6. Jager command is 5.

Even 4 man grens now have a recieved damage reduction (after rangers lost it) that means single explosions now are much harder to wipe models with.

An MG buff to let the cromwell do anything when the main gun isn't hitting is just a baseline QoL improvement. Nobody liked all or nothing tank shells. See the t-34/76, which is cheaper, but also has a good mg profile.


4 men squads is an argument - especially for ost. You seem to forget about stock heavy churchill you have, and new buffed centaur.
23 Oct 2019, 09:08 AM
#20
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1



4 men squads is an argument - especially for ost. You seem to forget about stock heavy churchill you have, and new buffed centaur.


A) Grens have damage reduction and Ost can play with larger squads of all kinds if you want to avoid having 4 men

B) Thefuk does other tanks existing matter when the point is that the MGs on the cromwell are currently only firing confetti
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