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Jagdpanzer IV Refit

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16 Oct 2019, 15:21 PM
#1
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3217

The Jagdpanzer IV's been in an odd position since the OKW rework a few years back.

It was designed for a completely different tech structure, and in the current lineup it's a little redudant. It's a fast-firing anti-medium tank specialist like the StuG, but it's in a tier with the OKW Panzer IV (which beats mediums and kills infantry) and the Panther (which can take on just about anything). The JPIV is only really the optimal choice against tank destroyer spam, which makes it a rather niche unit.

Furthermore, the JPIV's low penetration can make it a risky pick: with the plethora of viable heavy vehicles now available, it risks being rendered ineffective by the enemy build. The same is not true of the Panther, and the JPIV doesn't even have the saving grace of being able to fall back onto anti-infantry duty.

CoH 1 had sidegrades for lots of vehicles that gave them stronger anti-vehicle performance in exchange for a tradeoff. Maybe an upgrade like that could help out the JPIV?

SPECIALIST AMMUNITION
60 munitions
+110 penetration, +30% reload time.

At Vet 3, this gives the Jagdpanzer IV similar penetration and reload to the SU-85.

However, this isn't an upgrade. Most Allied vehicles have armour values below 170 (the JPIV's minimum penetration) making this a strict downgrade against the majority of targets.

  • Against units with <170 armour this is a roughly -20% DPS downgrade.
  • It breaks even against units with roughly 240 armour, like the Churchill.
  • Against units with >280 armour (Pershing, IS-2, Comet, Crocodile, KV-series, .etc) it's a roughly +30% DPS upgrade.


It's often complained that a lot of weapon upgrades are autobuy: there's practically no downside. That isn't true of this one: whether or not it's a good idea is very dependent on your and the enemy's force composition.

You permanently trade raw damage output for penetration, and that's not always a good idea. Against heavy armour compositions though, it could make all the difference.

I think this is a clever way to make the JPIV stack up better against the Panther without making it overpowering versus mediums or an automatic buy, and it does it in a strategically interesting way. Thoughts?
16 Oct 2019, 15:28 PM
#2
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

110 penetration seems a bit excessive... especially noting how axis is the faction that also gets access to superheavies (KT/JT/ELE)

id just give it enough penetration to match allied TDs then make the upgrade free...
16 Oct 2019, 15:34 PM
#3
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2413 | Subs: 1

I like the gist of the idea

What about making it just switchable shells? And reducing the pen buff a little bit, I also think +110 is a bit high

M4C HVAP shells work similarly iirc. Pen buff with longer reload
16 Oct 2019, 15:36 PM
#4
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341


What about making it just switchable shells? And reducing the pen buff a little bit, I also think +110 is a bit high

M4C HVAP shells work similarly iirc. Pen buff with longer reload


switchable shells would make the JP4 too good... its good at its role of forcing out allied heavy TDS... giving it switchable shells aswell without a downside might make it too strong...
16 Oct 2019, 15:37 PM
#5
avatar of PanzerFutz

Posts: 97

Switchable shells makes the most sense to me. More realistic and not a permanent downgrade against lower armor targets.

* The downside would be the swap-out time.
16 Oct 2019, 15:40 PM
#6
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2413 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 15:36 PMgbem


switchable shells would make the JP4 too good... its good at its role of forcing out allied heavy TDS... giving it switchable shells aswell without a downside might make it too strong...


I mean you can make the switching take 10 seconds or something, so it requires forethought

We could also nerf its survivability a little if its offense was improved. It has armor and target size that dont compare to other TDs because its main gun is also worse

Edit: Yup PanzerFutz, my thoughts exactly
16 Oct 2019, 15:42 PM
#7
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3217

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 15:28 PMgbem
110 penetration seems a bit excessive... especially noting how axis is the faction that also gets access to superheavies (KT/JT/ELE)

id just give it enough penetration to match allied TDs then make the upgrade free...


Penetration numbers are often misleading. I actually started with +80, and ended up increasing it after I calculated the actual effect of the upgrade on expected damage output.

+110 penetration, +30% reload time breaks even against the 240 armour Churchill: the penetration bonus and the reload malus roughly cancel each other out. Against anything below that, it's up to a -20% expected damage penalty.

+110 penetration, +30% reload time translates to a roughly +30% boost to expected damage against 280+ armour heavies, which seemed like a reasonable tradeoff to me.
16 Oct 2019, 15:49 PM
#8
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2278


+110 penetration, -30%

The OP says +30% atk speed

Also I like the idea
16 Oct 2019, 15:51 PM
#9
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3217


The OP says +30% atk speed

Also I like the idea


It's a +30% increase to the time it takes to reload the gun.

I'll edit to clarify.
16 Oct 2019, 15:52 PM
#10
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2278

Oh my gosh you are right. Poorest reading skills here, sry
16 Oct 2019, 15:53 PM
#11
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3217

Oh my gosh you are right. Poorest reading skills here, sry


Nah, -30% reload was super ambiguous. Thanks for pointing it out.
16 Oct 2019, 15:57 PM
#12
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 271

JPIV has 60 range, very high ROF, vet2 with extra 160HP, really good armour for a TD and stock KT to hide behind. I think it's a very strong unit and doesn't require any buffs. It's not even that expensive. When you want high pen you go Panther. Also HEAT rounds are available doctrinally, so anyone can make a decision to get them if they think they need the extra pen/damage.

Having stock pen increase of such high values is going to improve JPIV exp gain on heavies and the 30% extra reload is just going to decrease the ROF by ~1s when vetted. This is going to hard counter any allied heavies. I think it's a bad idea. If we were to believe the stats from coh2db, vetted upgraded JPIV would have 280 max range pen, a bit faster ROF and ~50% more accuracy than vet3 Jackson for a lower price. That combined with 230 armour and 800 HP would be crazy strong.
16 Oct 2019, 16:03 PM
#13
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2413 | Subs: 1

If we were to believe the stats from coh2db, vetted upgraded JPIV would have 280 max range pen, a bit faster ROF and ~50% more accuracy than vet3 Jackson for a lower price. That combined with 230 armour and 800 HP would be crazy strong.


Its defensive stats are there to make up for its main gun not comparing to allied TDs. I think it would benefit from changing that balance around to have a better gun and no health buff. Or larger target size or lower armor, theres a bunch that could be done if you give it a better gun
16 Oct 2019, 16:08 PM
#14
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2636

This would lead to veterancy nerfs. I prefer the current state. It’s a beast at vet 5 and has a very defined role in the okw roster.
16 Oct 2019, 16:16 PM
#15
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3217

JPIV has 60 range, very high ROF, vet2 with extra 160HP, really good armour for a TD and stock KT to hide behind. I think it's a very strong unit and doesn't require any buffs. It's not even that expensive. When you want high pen you go Panther. Also HEAT rounds are available doctrinally, so anyone can make a decision to get them if they think they need the extra pen/damage.


That's the thing though. A Panther can take on anything, and a Panzer IV can fall back to anti-infantry duty if it's got no mediums to club.

The Jagdpanzer IV is rarely the best pick. If you had the option to convert it to a lower RoF, higher pen gun, it'd be a safer pick.

Having stock pen increase of such high values is going to improve JPIV exp gain on heavies and the 30% extra reload is just going to decrease the ROF by ~1s when vetted. This is going to hard counter any allied heavies. I think it's a bad idea. If we were to believe the stats from coh2db, vetted upgraded JPIV would have 280 max range pen, a bit faster ROF and ~50% more accuracy than vet3 Jackson for a lower price. That combined with 230 armour and 800 HP would be crazy strong.


One second per shot.

That's an extra three seconds to kill a medium tank (as it doesn't reload the first shot).

In a game this fast, that's a big deal.

4.3 seconds to reload is about the same as the SU-85 or Jackson.

This would lead to veterancy nerfs. I prefer the current state. It’s a beast at vet 5 and has a very defined role in the okw roster.


It'd be inappropriate bordering stupid to nerf the base JPIV based on its sidegraded stats. That'd be like nerfing Conscripts based on the doctrinal PTRS sidegrade.

Any survivability nerfs should be tagged onto the sidegrade.
16 Oct 2019, 16:21 PM
#16
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3605 | Subs: 1

This would lead to veterancy nerfs. I prefer the current state. It’s a beast at vet 5 and has a very defined role in the okw roster.


Good thing it has 2x the XP requirements for vet 5 as the vet 3 for Su85 and the vet 5 doesn't even do anything useful :romeoHype:
16 Oct 2019, 16:22 PM
#17
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2413 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 16:16 PMLago


It'd be inappropriate bordering stupid to nerf the base JPIV based on its sidegraded stats. That'd be like nerfing Conscripts based on the doctrinal PTRS sidegrade.


I agree with this, so what do you think about swithcable shells? Then you could just directly alter its survivability

Which as Ive said, I think it only has that because its gun is shit compared to allied TDs which have less durability but better guns
16 Oct 2019, 16:23 PM
#18
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2636



Good thing it has 2x the XP requirements for vet 5 as the vet 3 for Su85 and the vet 5 doesn't even do anything useful :romeoHype:


If only there was an up to date guide so I could see what the JP4 gets in the live build. :romeoHype:
16 Oct 2019, 16:27 PM
#19
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8287 | Subs: 1

JP4 has a number of issues:
High price
High pop
Low penetration
high frontal armor low rear
Low rotation speed
problematic vet bonuses

One first has to decide what the role of this unit is:
If it a counter to mediums it need lower cost and pop
If it is a counter to enemy 60 Tds it needs lower cost pop
If it a counter to enemy heavies/super heavies it need more penetration

In any way it need a veterancy overhaul.
16 Oct 2019, 16:28 PM
#20
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3217

I agree with this, so what do you think about swithcable shells? Then you could just directly alter its survivability

Which as Ive said, I think it only has that because its gun is shit compared to allied TDs which have less durability but better guns


Its gun is superior to Allied TDs against anything with less armour than a Churchill.

Survivability is a good point though. Maybe it'd be worth making the sidegrade cost 100 MP 40 FU instead.
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