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20 Sep 2013, 12:41 PM
#1
avatar of HS King

Posts: 249

Hey guys I think coh2 has potential to be better than vcoh but right now its not even close, and a lot of it has to do with the game engine IMO.

There are 2 things that I think would make a massive change - first one being take the camera back to the same distance as was in vcoh. This enables a much larger map overview and enables much more tactical play, effective flanks and brings it in line with what vcoh was about. The maps dont help much, they are all so closed off and are like the worst of the vcoh ones. Most great vcoh maps had room to maneuvre. The fact that some units have huge range only makes it worse that the camera is so close in.


The other is unit speed and reaction time - please bring it back to vcoh levels ie. instant response. Inf moved very quick, there was no dawdling around, no jumping, stalling and getting stuck. Units shot on the move and could wipe out squads beautifully if they put themselves in a bad position. Right now the inf gets stuck and seems like it stops shooting a lot of the time. The reaction time is another killer. Just go back and watch even one game of vcoh, see how beautiful, smooth and responsive the units are. THis needs to come back, it enables micro of the highest level, makes the game a joy to play and rewards a good player.

for your reference please watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj_MCt9KnwY - vcoh was like a game of chess in a realistic battlefield scenario coh2 isn't like that, it is/can be great but with these changes it could be so much better.

Id love to hear your feedback as to why these issues are there and what can be done about them. I mean there are other matters but I think these are the most important ones and would give a hell of a lot of enjoyment back to a lot of people.

Thanks guys
20 Sep 2013, 12:47 PM
#2
avatar of Ringelbeatz

Posts: 20

indeed.
the input lag/ unit respone time is a real joykiller for me too. I bet they are already working on it, but it will take some time...
20 Sep 2013, 12:53 PM
#3
avatar of GreenDevil

Posts: 209

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2013, 12:41 PMHS King
Hey guys I think coh2 has potential to be better than vcoh but right now its not even close, and a lot of it has to do with the game engine IMO.

There are 2 things that I think would make a massive change - first one being take the camera back to the same distance as was in vcoh. This enables a much larger map overview and enables much more tactical play, effective flanks and brings it in line with what vcoh was about. The maps dont help much, they are all so closed off and are like the worst of the vcoh ones. Most great vcoh maps had room to maneuvre. The fact that some units have huge range only makes it worse that the camera is so close in.


The other is unit speed and reaction time - please bring it back to vcoh levels ie. instant response. Inf moved very quick, there was no dawdling around, no jumping, stalling and getting stuck. Units shot on the move and could wipe out squads beautifully if they put themselves in a bad position. Right now the inf gets stuck and seems like it stops shooting a lot of the time. The reaction time is another killer. Just go back and watch even one game of vcoh, see how beautiful, smooth and responsive the units are. THis needs to come back, it enables micro of the highest level, makes the game a joy to play and rewards a good player.

for your reference please watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj_MCt9KnwY - vcoh was like a game of chess in a realistic battlefield scenario coh2 isn't like that, it is/can be great but with these changes it could be so much better.

Id love to hear your feedback as to why these issues are there and what can be done about them. I mean there are other matters but I think these are the most important ones and would give a hell of a lot of enjoyment back to a lot of people.

Thanks guys


+1 Mate, you are right on the money. I too would like a response from Relic with regard to the input lag/response time and general sloppy feel of play. Combine that with bad pathing and the way some units react under fire by throwing themselves on the ground, bunching up etc etc.

Relic need to acknowledge this, this problem WILL BE the number one killer of CoH2, if they don't fix it, people just play the game once or twice and never again because they dont like it for those reasons.

I think our biggest issues is that Multiplayer is probably the lowest ratio of players for CoH2, so Relic would rather put the money and resources into ToW, Comp Stomp part of the game because according to them thats where the money is.

Relic, why don't you ask Blizzard if Multiplayer is where they make their money and sales? I'll wage my left nut they will tell you "Of course it is"
20 Sep 2013, 13:03 PM
#4
avatar of Stonethecrow01

Posts: 325

While I mostly agree with your points, I disagree with your opening statement. I'm enjoying CoH 2 as much as vCoH.
20 Sep 2013, 13:09 PM
#5
avatar of HS King

Posts: 249

While I mostly agree with your points, I disagree with your opening statement. I'm enjoying CoH 2 as much as vCoH.


you know what so am I, in some ways even more so. But some decisions made just make no sense to me. There were aspects of vcoh that made the game into the best RTS ever and for no reason at all, and to the detriment of the sequel they were changed/removed/ made worse and that kills it for me a lot. Either way it would be cool to find out why and if there is anything being done. I mean I dont demand a response from them but it would be nice and interesting to hear.
20 Sep 2013, 14:12 PM
#6
avatar of KingAnj

Posts: 68

I agree with the lag-input. Apparently, this last patch reduced the "squads freaking out" time and "auto-cover-while-walking/moving" but, Compared to COH1 (and i used to HATE the auto-cover feautre in COH1; because they ran out of green cover), this is rediculous.

I've lost many squads when hitting retreat because they pause and waited for 1 or 2 models to "get to the center of the squad" before moving as a whole. I should NOT have to hit "Halt-Halt-Retreat" everytime i need to retreat a squad.

Also, i do enjoy the realism of "calling-in-units-from-off-map" compare to "appearing-from-the-building-units" in COH1 but, when they dawdle and "seek cover" OFF THE MAP (when i cannot control them) it hurts timing and "i need [you/unit] now!" moments (even more when the "off the map area is BIG" as it is adding more "building time" to my unit).

Obviously, i would love unit-response times to be like COH1.

And since it relates, increase unit "dmg reduction modifier" when retreating A LITTLE BIT. Right now, i feel hitting retreat just makes my unit "pause-and-go-.5%-faster" and they don't feel like a "tactical retreat" as in COH1.
NOW, don't increase it too much as i know the vet system in COH2 has changed, therefore, i do not want 6 vet 3 squads on each side in a usual 1v1 game.
20 Sep 2013, 14:22 PM
#7
avatar of Turtle

Posts: 389

I did some measuring, and side by side playing CoH1 and CoH2 on my dual monitor setup. The camera is the same distance as CoH1 in almost every case.

The only time this changes is if sections of the map are higher or lower. I think the camera tilt may be different though.

The reason why people think the camera is closer is that the weapon ranges on all the cannon type weapons have been drastically increased. While I was initially happy with the change, I do think it has led to some problems. I don't think drawing the camera even further back is going to fix that.

Also, there's a lot of things I like about CoH2 over CoH1, but the engine isn't one of them. Take off the rose colored glasses and CoH1 was still a good game, but it wasn't some chess-like zen game. It was just a good game with its own balance scheme, much like CoH2 is its own balance scheme.
20 Sep 2013, 22:55 PM
#8
avatar of HS King

Posts: 249

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2013, 14:22 PMTurtle
I did some measuring, and side by side playing CoH1 and CoH2 on my dual monitor setup. The camera is the same distance as CoH1 in almost every case.

The only time this changes is if sections of the map are higher or lower. I think the camera tilt may be different though.

The reason why people think the camera is closer is that the weapon ranges on all the cannon type weapons have been drastically increased. While I was initially happy with the change, I do think it has led to some problems. I don't think drawing the camera even further back is going to fix that.

Also, there's a lot of things I like about CoH2 over CoH1, but the engine isn't one of them. Take off the rose colored glasses and CoH1 was still a good game, but it wasn't some chess-like zen game. It was just a good game with its own balance scheme, much like CoH2 is its own balance scheme.



Have a look at the size of infantry in both games, in vcoh they are tiny and you get to see a much larger portion of the map. In coh 2 it seems like you are looking through a keyhole, this really frustrates and stops a lot of possible attack avenues.

Im not talking about the balance issues - they can and will be ironed out, Im talking about how the game works/feels to play. The input from vcoh was so fast and crisp that you could get your guys to do anything you wanted basically any time in coh2 its so sluggish even with the fix.

Like KingAnj said the retreat button in vcoh was like a tactical choice which your men followed near instantly , sure there was times they got wiped out but thats part of the game, in coh2 they sometimes sit there fore 3-5 seconds milling about.

For anyone who doubts it please watch that video the game is a bit one sided but it shows you everything you need to know. Look how beautifully and fluidly the infantry move around and follow commands, space out and bunch up when needed, look at the fantastic physics which effects everything in the game ( at one point a rocket even flies through a hole in the side of the enemies HQ and kills some pios on the other side) as a side note look how great the effects look.

Now ifyou are going to make a sequel to a game why change the basic mechanics of the game for worse? Why make the bread and butter of the game inferior to the first game?

I mean coh2 has some awesome stuff and in many cases it is much better but why make the units move so poorly and slowly, delay their reactions and change the perspective size / ratio to make it into a completely different game style?
20 Sep 2013, 23:59 PM
#9
avatar of GreenDevil

Posts: 209

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2013, 22:55 PMHS King



Have a look at the size of infantry in both games, in vcoh they are tiny and you get to see a much larger portion of the map. In coh 2 it seems like you are looking through a keyhole, this really frustrates and stops a lot of possible attack avenues.

Im not talking about the balance issues - they can and will be ironed out, Im talking about how the game works/feels to play. The input from vcoh was so fast and crisp that you could get your guys to do anything you wanted basically any time in coh2 its so sluggish even with the fix.

Like KingAnj said the retreat button in vcoh was like a tactical choice which your men followed near instantly , sure there was times they got wiped out but thats part of the game, in coh2 they sometimes sit there fore 3-5 seconds milling about.

For anyone who doubts it please watch that video the game is a bit one sided but it shows you everything you need to know. Look how beautifully and fluidly the infantry move around and follow commands, space out and bunch up when needed, look at the fantastic physics which effects everything in the game ( at one point a rocket even flies through a hole in the side of the enemies HQ and kills some pios on the other side) as a side note look how great the effects look.

Now ifyou are going to make a sequel to a game why change the basic mechanics of the game for worse? Why make the bread and butter of the game inferior to the first game?

I mean coh2 has some awesome stuff and in many cases it is much better but why make the units move so poorly and slowly, delay their reactions and change the perspective size / ratio to make it into a completely different game style?


The answer to your question I think is simple. CoH2 was not made by the same designers. The designers for COH1 were Josh Masquirea (spelling) and Quinn Duffy. CoH2 was designed by Quinn Duffy only I think.
21 Sep 2013, 00:11 AM
#10
avatar of GreenDevil

Posts: 209

Josh Masquiera went on to big and better things. He works for Blizzard and Ubisoft and has designed/help design a lot of great titles with them. No offense to Quinn Duffy but I think Josh was a more talented Designer.

Also Josh has designed Far Cry 3 and Duablo III, it is also worth noting he was NOT involved with the design of Tales of Valor or Company of Heroes online.
21 Sep 2013, 15:32 PM
#11
avatar of karolus10

Posts: 45

I agree with camera zoom suggestion, default zoom is fine, but being able to zoom camera out a ~20% from default position would be very appreciated.

CoH2 is like raw diamond, It had potential to be much better game than CoH, but still need a lot of tweaks to make it happen.

Also I hope That Tactical map will get some love from developers one day, because It's looking more like placeholder than essential tool from.
21 Sep 2013, 16:18 PM
#12
avatar of nikolai262

Posts: 60

I just wish they would fix the god dam ridiculous lag you get in any 3v3 or 4v4 game.

8 players all with fibre optic 50mb should not be lagging!
21 Sep 2013, 16:41 PM
#13
avatar of Turtle

Posts: 389

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Sep 2013, 22:55 PMHS King

Have a look at the size of infantry in both games, in vcoh they are tiny and you get to see a much larger portion of the map. In coh 2 it seems like you are looking through a keyhole, this really frustrates and stops a lot of possible attack avenues.


The infantry are the same size.

There are differences in terrain, but the camera pretty much the same.

Here's a direct comparison:



To get a better example, try saving those two images and use preview software, or open them up in their own browser tabs and quickly flip between them. The infantry are pretty much the same.

If you want, I can see about digging into more comparison images. I can even try plotting out the perspective on the images to see if there have been any changes in the camera tilt and such.

There is something different, but camera height and zoom isn't one of them. There may be other differences, such as focal length changes. Changes in focal length, along with positioning of the camera can make certain objects the same size, but.

Also the default terrain height for CoH2 might be different than CoH1.

Lastly, the focus (center) of the CoH2 camera is in the middle of the screen. However, because the UI covers up a large portion of the bottom of the screen, it means that the center of the play area is moved up, but now it's offset from the camera center.

Other gameplay aspects, like movement rates and ranges also can skew your perception.

Like you, I thought that the camera height was different, but I made sure to check exactly back in the beta to make sure. It is not.
21 Sep 2013, 18:48 PM
#14
avatar of walkingbass

Posts: 25

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Sep 2013, 16:41 PMTurtle


Lastly, the focus (center) of the CoH2 camera is in the middle of the screen. However, because the UI covers up a large portion of the bottom of the screen, it means that the center of the play area is moved up, but now it's offset from the camera center.


you got the point. A slightly less invasive UI would be appreciated ;)
21 Sep 2013, 19:03 PM
#15
avatar of Turtle

Posts: 389

Yeah, but if you check the two screens I posted, the UI size between CoH1 and CoH2 are also pretty similar.

I do think Relic completely missed the ball on updating their UI sensibilities. They went with a skeoumorphic design that doesn't really add that much more charm to the game, while taking away a lot of functionality.

I was also responding to a very specific argument that people make, which was the camera height/zoom. I just wanted to prove to people that this was false. But understandable, it does feel like it is closer, but feelings can lie.
22 Sep 2013, 14:26 PM
#16
avatar of HS King

Posts: 249

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Sep 2013, 16:41 PMTurtle


The infantry are the same size.

There are differences in terrain, but the camera pretty much the same.

Here's a direct comparison:



To get a better example, try saving those two images and use preview software, or open them up in their own browser tabs and quickly flip between them. The infantry are pretty much the same.

If you want, I can see about digging into more comparison images. I can even try plotting out the perspective on the images to see if there have been any changes in the camera tilt and such.

There is something different, but camera height and zoom isn't one of them. There may be other differences, such as focal length changes. Changes in focal length, along with positioning of the camera can make certain objects the same size, but.

Also the default terrain height for CoH2 might be different than CoH1.

Lastly, the focus (center) of the CoH2 camera is in the middle of the screen. However, because the UI covers up a large portion of the bottom of the screen, it means that the center of the play area is moved up, but now it's offset from the camera center.

Other gameplay aspects, like movement rates and ranges also can skew your perception.

Like you, I thought that the camera height was different, but I made sure to check exactly back in the beta to make sure. It is not.



Wow dude that's a great post - thanks for that. Yeh I guess I am wrong about the zoom distance thing but whatever it is, it does detract from the game imo. In coh you definitely get a feel that you can see more of the map and act on more things at once - coh2 constricts you in that way.
22 Sep 2013, 14:35 PM
#17
avatar of HS King

Posts: 249

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Sep 2013, 14:26 PMHS King



Wow dude that's a great post - thanks for that. Yeh I guess I am wrong about the zoom distance thing but whatever it is, it does detract from the game imo. In coh you definitely get a feel that you can see more of the map and act on more things at once - coh2 constricts you in that way.


Hmm I think after looking at it much more - its the angle of the camera. In vcoh its much more looking down while coh2 is closer to parallel with the ground meaning there is a smaller viewing angle cutting off visibility. Got to say the delay between giving a command and troops responding is probably to me the worst problem coh2 has atm followed by the screen thing.
22 Sep 2013, 18:51 PM
#18
avatar of Turtle

Posts: 389

To be frank though, I've been following CoH since the CoH1 beta and even back then, people were asking for them to pull back the camera.

I do agree that there are a lot of other subtle, and not so subtle, changes to the game that make the view seem smaller.

Even Truesight can make the view seem smaller, since you're limited in what you can see, the world seems more compressed since you don't know what's behind that hedge.
22 Sep 2013, 22:05 PM
#19
avatar of Pwee

Posts: 6

I would just like to +1 on the command delay/response time issue.
It would feel so much better to play this game with quick unit respons instead of the "huh, what did you say? Oh you want us to stop and go the other way?" This issue is even more pronounced in team games. I feel this makes blobbing more viable.
22 Sep 2013, 22:57 PM
#20
avatar of herr anfsim

Posts: 235

I have verry mixed feelings about COH2. There are aspects of it that are great, like truesight, but there is also gamebreaking flaws, and in many areas its a big step down compared to vCOH. I think the general design and philosophy of vCOH was way better, and I really dont see COH2 ever beeing the sequel vCOH truly deserves.
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