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russian armor

USF needs

30 Aug 2015, 20:12 PM
#81
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2015, 15:33 PMJunaid
Hmm...no, no spotting scope. Else it can spot everything else too! (And with pt vehicle it wont give it away)

Focus vision forward? Or Armored vehicle detection on minimap after 10 sec standstill?

Mind you, I LIKE the spotting scope idea, but usually self-spotting TDs don't work out very well (remember elefant maphack?)

Which is why I suggested these alternatives.


Elefant maphack only exists because the Elefant has spotting scopes and focus forward. Without focus forward the scopes only give ~10 extra vision, without spotting scopes focus forward is only out to 60 (same as SU-85).
31 Aug 2015, 07:54 AM
#82
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3597 | Subs: 1



This is why I think the M10 and M36 should have Spotting Scopes by default. They'd only be active when the unit is still, and would simulate a key part of USF TD Doctrine: getting the First Strike.

Relic did a horrible job as simulating the TD Doctrine so now these fearsome tank killers find themselves always on the backfoot, or always at high risk, but never fighting confidently.


If you want to fight confidently play Axis. :foreveralone:

M36 or M10 plus scope would simply be OP. Not need for that. Make RM more durable with vet so you can leave them alone more time while micro your other units. It seems simple but there is not need to make it more complicated.

RM with a better durability = Stay longer on the field, can give vision, screen and support your TDs.
This or add whatever elite stock troop you can replace with when you lose your RMs.
31 Aug 2015, 08:00 AM
#83
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2015, 07:54 AMEsxile
M36 or M10 plus scope would simply be OP. Not need for that. Make RM more durable with vet so you can leave them alone more time while micro your other units. It seems simple but there is not need to make it more complicated.


An alternative solution could be passive Vehicle Detection that highlights vehicles in out of sight, this at least wouldn't spot infantry or other non-vehicle activities. Buffing Riflemen durability wouldn't help much though. If you're chasing down that wounded Tiger, Rifle durability won't stop them from losing 2 models a shot. Imo USF Tank Destroyers need a way to spot for themselves, this is exactly the reason they were so successful in real-life and exactly why they need so much micromanagement and support in-game. Which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if USF didn't lack spotting units and have to micromanage everything from individual tank repairs to their medics healing, in addition to the Soviet-level required just to fight.
31 Aug 2015, 08:16 AM
#84
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3597 | Subs: 1

TDs are mean to counter Axis tanks. And they are already doing good today, you don't want to buff them to do their job otherwise you'll simply make Axis armor useless. Even more since Heavies has been reduce to 1 per player.

USF doesn't have any problem to counter Axis armor in a vacuum. It has problem to micro its combined arms. it has problem when Axis comes with a bunch of grenadiers + indirect support that wipe your RMs in no time.

Or you micro your TDs and you lose your RMs, or you micro your RMs and you lose your TDs.
Buffing the TDs would not solve all the other aspect of USF issues, it would probably make Axis player ask for a TDs nerf and spam more inf.
31 Aug 2015, 08:31 AM
#85
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 830

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2015, 07:54 AMEsxile


If you want to fight confidently play Axis. :foreveralone:

M36 or M10 plus scope would simply be OP. Not need for that. Make RM more durable with vet so you can leave them alone more time while micro your other units. It seems simple but there is not need to make it more complicated.

RM with a better durability = Stay longer on the field, can give vision, screen and support your TDs.
This or add whatever elite stock troop you can replace with when you lose your RMs.


True, but if that would be the new edition to USF tank destroyers, you will never see a German tank again. It will be Pak40 and Raketten walls all the way then.
31 Aug 2015, 08:55 AM
#86
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2015, 08:16 AMEsxile
TDs are mean to counter Axis tanks. And they are already doing good today, you don't want to buff them to do their job otherwise you'll simply make Axis armor useless. Even more since Heavies has been reduce to 1 per player.


I'm not convinced, the Axis have Panther tanks that can literally face-dive allied AT Walls, finish off a limping tank, and blitz out for repairs. And that doesn't stop Allies from building any tanks.

Furthermore, the British are about to have something very similar in the form of the Comet Tank, which isn't as agile, but at face value basically the Tiger's AI with the Panther's AT.
31 Aug 2015, 09:14 AM
#87
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3597 | Subs: 1



I'm not convinced, the Axis have Panther tanks that can literally face-dive allied AT Walls, finish off a limping tank, and blitz out for repairs. And that doesn't stop Allies from building any tanks.

Furthermore, the British are about to have something very similar in the form of the Comet Tank, which isn't as agile, but at face value basically the Tiger's AI with the Panther's AT.


Yes and you take a risk, your Panther can be damage + engine damage by a riflenade during your rush, you can hit a mine etc... That's risk/reward. Where is the risk of having a M36 spotting for himself behind your line?
SU85 and JP4 have it but they are turretless.

USF is design around RMs being backbone of the army. Actually they aren't past 10 min mark. So let them being it all the game long and that would probably solve many of the USF issues aspect.
31 Aug 2015, 09:54 AM
#88
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2015, 09:14 AMEsxile
Yes and you take a risk, your Panther can be damage + engine damage by a riflenade during your rush, you can hit a mine etc... That's risk/reward. Where is the risk of having a M36 spotting for himself behind your line?

The risk is playing USF :sibHyena:


jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2015, 09:14 AMEsxile
USF is design around RMs being backbone of the army. Actually they aren't past 10 min mark. So let them being it all the game long and that would probably solve many of the USF issues aspect.

Forcing the USF player to bleed manpower just to utilize his TD's basic function doesn't help him much though. Rifles need better scaling but that's not gonna help the fact that walking into enemy lines like a suicide squad attempting to spot for a glass cannon is going to hurt your manpower bar.

The Germans can have Spotting Scopes on Panthers, on a Vetted 222 the Spotting Scope can see 125 meters (easily half a 1v1 map), on StuG's you can see your max range. I don't see how they'd suddenly be OP on USF. Plus, they're only active when you're sitting still.
31 Aug 2015, 10:44 AM
#89
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3597 | Subs: 1

Making RM more durable will reduce the mp bleed. This and correcting the thousand bugs impacting USF faction.

After, that's just my feeling, I'm not struggling using M36 or M10 because of themselves appart from pathing issues. But it becomes quite complicated with nothing being able to stand more than 5 seconds vs anything Axis can field in late game.
31 Aug 2015, 10:59 AM
#90
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

Jackson HP buff is needed
31 Aug 2015, 11:52 AM
#91
avatar of IJHicks_XI

Posts: 32

Silly idea inbound....

57mm AT to tier 0 available with either LT or Capt

Then add into the Capt tier one of these... theres your more mobile AT on a light platform....

31 Aug 2015, 11:57 AM
#92
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 830

Silly idea inbound....

57mm AT to tier 0 available with either LT or Capt

Then add into the Capt tier one of these... theres your more mobile AT on a light platform....



Would be epic

Would so totally ruin balance and gameplay
31 Aug 2015, 13:48 PM
#93
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

There's nothing wrong with the jackson. It's perfectly fine. The problem is that it's really the only thing that can hurt armor. USF needs more anti-armor options not just to buff their only good option til it's OP.
31 Aug 2015, 14:28 PM
#94
avatar of Kreatiir

Posts: 2819

There's nothing wrong with the jackson. It's perfectly fine. The problem is that it's really the only thing that can hurt armor. USF needs more anti-armor options not just to buff their only good option til it's OP.


I kinda agree with this.
It's just, the USF have no damage-soaking unit thus they need to engage tank battles extremely cautious.
That's the thing for me that I don't like about the USF. A P4 can easily escape situations that shermans or Jacksons can't.
31 Aug 2015, 14:31 PM
#95
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 830



I kinda agree with this.
It's just, the USF have no damage-soaking unit thus they need to engage tank battles extremely cautious.
That's the thing for me that I don't like about the USF. A P4 can easily escape situations that shermans or Jacksons can't.


Agreed.
31 Aug 2015, 20:43 PM
#96
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Silly idea inbound....

57mm AT to tier 0 available with either LT or Capt

Then add into the Capt tier one of these... theres your more mobile AT on a light platform....



A US-76? :sibHyena:
31 Aug 2015, 20:49 PM
#97
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

I kinda agree with this.
It's just, the USF have no damage-soaking unit thus they need to engage tank battles extremely cautious.
That's the thing for me that I don't like about the USF. A P4 can easily escape situations that shermans or Jacksons can't.


The Panzer IV only has 40 more armour, it isn't a huge amount. It's Blitz that gives it the survivability, and that needs to be disabled in combat imo.

As for no damage soaking, that's part of the problem. US didn't rely on heavy armour, they relied on superior numbers or first-strike Tank Destroyers. Neither of which is portrayed in-game.

Relic wanted to make USF use Tank Destroyers, without giving them any of the advantages these Tank Destroyers had.
31 Aug 2015, 20:54 PM
#98
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 830



The Panzer IV only has 40 more armour, it isn't a huge amount. It's Blitz that gives it the survivability, and that needs to be disabled in combat imo.

As for no damage soaking, that's part of the problem. US didn't rely on heavy armour, they relied on superior numbers or first-strike Tank Destroyers. Neither of which is portrayed in-game.

Relic wanted to make USF use Tank Destroyers, without giving them any of the advantages these Tank Destroyers had.


Tank destroyers were mostly used for defensive purposes. When assaulting, tanks actually dealt with tanks, not tank destroyers.
31 Aug 2015, 21:00 PM
#99
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Tank destroyers were mostly used for defensive purposes. When assaulting, tanks actually dealt with tanks, not tank destroyers.


That's not correct, according to US Doctrine Tanks dealt with Infantry and Fortifications, Tank Destroyers dealt with Armour. My argument for Tank Destroyers having increased range comes from the fact that US Tank Destroyers had open tops because it let the entire turret crew spot for targets, rather than mostly relying on the Commander looking through small vision slits. This meant that US Tank Destroyers would often see the enemy first and get the first shot.
31 Aug 2015, 21:04 PM
#100
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 830



That's not correct, according to US Doctrine Tanks dealt with Infantry and Fortifications, Tank Destroyers dealt with Armour. My argument for Tank Destroyers having increased range comes from the fact that US Tank Destroyers had open tops because it let the entire turret crew spot for targets, rather than mostly relying on the Commander looking through small vision slits. This meant that US Tank Destroyers would often see the enemy first and get the first shot.


Oh I thought they were used for defensive purposes, heard Imperial Dane say something about that once.

My bad!
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